excuses racists use (particularly with dating)

[Traitorfish]

In all fairness, dating conservative men of traditionally patriarchal cultures doesn't always wind up fun. There may be a degree of risk averseness going on. It's so easy to round file from the internet.

That would be "I don't date X", surely, rather than "I only date Y"?

 

[warpus]

Racist who announces to you that they won't date you because they're racist? But they'll skirt around the issue and call it "old fashioned" ? I don't know, what do you tell someone like that? "Oh, I didn't realize you're a racist. Sorry, I'm old fashioned, I've been brought up to not date racists. Have a nice day! Say hi to {some famous racist} at the Klan rally for me."

You don't tell people something like that over here, so I can't imagine the situation at all.. I'd be an a-hole to somebody who said that to me and move on. Call them out, call them a scrotum face, and find somebody else to date.. *shrug* and I feel bad that you have to go through all that. You shouldn't have to.

 

[Farm Boy]

That would be "I don't date X", surely, rather than "I only date Y"?

Do you think the parsing of speech for political meaning is that careful? Either way, we're running it through the wrong filters. These are more realistic on the risk averse angle(I think!): the former phrase is directly confrontational and sounds worse. "I don't date Middle-Eastern men." vs "I only date white dudes." The first one offloads the issue that's stopping progress onto the dude. It invites responses, "Hey, why don't you date Middle-Eastern men? I'm not a that sort of guy! Those reasons don't apply to me!" The second statement puts the block on the woman. While being more passive aggressive than flat aggressive, it leaves far less room for rebuttal. There is no proving or qualifying to be had by the solicitor, the proposition itself is doa.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That would be "I don't date X", surely, rather than "I only date Y"?

Keeping in mind that CTD is apparently in Texas those two positions may blur together quite a bit, because Texas is mostly biracial. The girls telling him "I only date white (Y)" may actually be thinking "I don't date Hispanic (X)" and just catching him and the other scattering of Black/Asian/Middle Eastern prospects (variables small enough to be considered negligible in this calculation) in the fray.

I'm with Warpus, by the way. I call out racists all the time, even when they surprise me by appearing suddenly in people I consider friends. I long ago got past the conundrum about not tolerating intolerance being intolerance. I meet the intolerant with intolerance and it doesn't phase me in the least.

 

[Traitorfish]

Do you think the parsing of speech for political meaning is that careful? Either way, we're running it through the wrong filters. These are more realistic on the risk averse angle(I think!): the former phrase is directly confrontational and sounds worse. "I don't date Middle-Eastern men." vs "I only date white dudes." The first one offloads the issue that's stopping progress onto the dude. It invites responses, "Hey, why don't you date Middle-Eastern men? I'm not a that sort of guy! Those reasons don't apply to me!" The second statement puts the block on the woman. While being more passive aggressive than flat aggressive, it leaves far less room for rebuttal. There is no proving or qualifying to be had by the solicitor, the proposition itself is doa.

So we should interpret declarations of racial preference as martyrdom to etiquette? That seems a stretch.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So we should interpret declarations of racial preference as martyrdom to etiquette? That seems a stretch.

I think it would be more a martyring of reason to convenience. In the anonymous world of the internet "here's a rebuff that makes me look like a racist" does carry the benefit of getting no argument, and by anonymity it really carries no consequences.

Imagine an aggressive come on from a girl you really have no interest in. If she is someone you see every day, who knows most of the women in your available dating pool, you have to handle this with some sort of discretion. In the anonymous world of on line dating you can casually say "by the way I have herpes" and be done with it.

 

[NovaKart]

When someone messages me on an Internet dating site and I'm not interested I don't make up excuses, I just don't respond at all.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I'm not 70 and my parents would have had a cow if I had told them when I was dating black girls. I know, because they did have a cow when my brother married a Japanese girl and another when my sister moved in with a Mexican guy. They had a cow when I married a white girl, because she was of Italian descent. It may be fifty years since naked undisguised racism was widely accepted, but people still practiced it at home for decades after.

Right, that might confirm my sense of things. How old are your parents? I have no idea how old you are, but it sounds like you and your siblings were not at all concerned about dating outside your race.

The good news is that confining bigotry to houses and getting it off the streets allowed my generation enough fresh air to make progress. Hopefully this "I can't date you because I was raised by bigots" nonsense will die out in a few generations if we can just keep progressing.

I agree. My mother caused a kerfluffle in her family when she dated a Black man in the mid-1960s. My (our?) peer group has been dating and marrying without much regard for ethnicity since the late '80s. Kids in their teens and 20s today are, I think, even less concerned with it. Anyone uncomfortable dating outside their race is already a dinosaur, and soon enough, it won't even be worth mentioning.

 

[Farm Boy]

So we should interpret declarations of racial preference as martyrdom to etiquette? That seems a stretch.

No, I'm stipulating that a racial preference is probably real. Being risk averse is one explanation I have seen, anecdotally, in white women I know. Specific in the cases of those anecdotes to having not been risk averse in the past. Avoidance of (further)men perceived as possibly being conservative and from a more traditionally patriarchal culture is a thing. I am not arguing that simply filthy rotten racism is not out there too, just offering another thing that goes on.

I don't think it's martyrdom. It can simply be a risk averse response that's a total proposition closer.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Right, that might confirm my sense of things. How old are your parents? I have no idea how old you are, but it sounds like you and your siblings were not at all concerned about dating outside your race.


I agree. My mother caused a kerfluffle in her family when she dated a Black man in the mid-1960s. My (our?) peer group has been dating and marrying without much regard for ethnicity since the late '80s. Kids in their teens and 20s today are, I think, even less concerned with it. Anyone uncomfortable dating outside their race is already a dinosaur, and soon enough, it won't even be worth mentioning.

I dated two black girls in 1980, and it was difficult. Even though racism had been mostly confined to home and banned in public, a biracial couple boiled over all the simmering pots everywhere we went. But as you say, a decade later things were much better, and my kids peer group (in their thirties) seem to have the situation mostly handled. Another generation or two and I think this whole racism business may be put to rest.

 

[warpus]

When someone messages me on an Internet dating site and I'm not interested I don't make up excuses, I just don't respond at all.

Yeah, whoever's responding to him with: "Oh sorry, I don't date you people." is not only a racist, but also a racist willing to go out of her way to point out to you that she's racist. Most people just wouldn't even reply..

And I mean, it's fine to not be attracted to someone and fine to not be attracted to most guys/girls from a specific ethnic background.. But you don't reply to the person and tell them that anyone in their ethnic group is right out. Where I'm from that's just.. not done. It's vile.

Not interested in the person, don't reply.. That's what most girls do. Going out of your way to reply and try to justify it using racism? Come on... Either these girls are too daft to date or they're too vile to date. Take your pick.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Census: More people identify as mixed race

By Moni Basu, CNN, September 27th, 2012

(CNN) - Before 2000, you had to pick one: White, black, Asian, American Indian, Alaska Native or some other race. But now you can tick multiple boxes on the U.S. Census Bureau's race category.

The 2010 census provided the first glimpse of trends in multirace reporting since it was the second time such an option was available. And what it shows is that people who say they are a mix of races grew by a larger percentage than people who reported a single race, according to the data released Thursday.

People who reported a background of mixed race grew by 32% to 9 million between 2000 and 2010. In comparison, single-race population increased 9.2%.

In all, the U.S. population increased by 9.7% since 2000. Many multiple-race groups increased by 50% or more.

But that does not necessarily mean there are many more children of interracial couples.

Sociologist Kris Marsh said that it could be that many people who checked only one box in 2000 have decided to celebrate their diversity and checked multiple boxes this go-around.

So this means (a) more people are being born into multiethnic families, or (b) more people are feeling confident declaring their multiple ethnicities, or (c) some of each.

EDIT: According to census.gov, the population reporting both Asian and White ethnicity grew 87% between 2000 and 2010, and the population reporting Black and White ethnicity grew by 134% (!). That's ~75,000 and over 1,000,000 respectively.


As an aside, I've long wondered if there could be a biological component to being attracted to people of other races. Genetic diversity is healthier, if I remember my biology, and the baby-making that lies at the root of (some of) our sexual urges might recognize the benefit of mating with someone who has a completely different genetic makeup. (Total flight of fancy hypothesizing on my part, I ain't read no studies er nuthin'.)

 

[Farm Boy]

The amount of indignance going on here is pretty amusing:

Of course women are free to pick amongst potential suitors on any criteria they please, social status, career, wealth, age, fitness, straight nose, hair color, religion, living arrangements, hobbies, whatever! But the huge bag of socialization-structures that frequently comes with self-identified ethnicity? OMG THE WITCHES!

 

[jackelgull]

I'm not really outraged or indignant. I am just wondering a woman would reject someone in such a way, rather than just ignoring them. Do people somehow feel obligated to reply when they're asked out?

I don't think I would be too upset. It isn't a personal judgment, or at least I don't identify so closely to my skin color that it becomes a judgment. Besides, I don't think I'm the kind of person that a girl would like to date anyways.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The amount of indignance going on here is pretty amusing:

Of course women are free to pick amongst potential suitors on any criteria they please, social status, career, wealth, age, fitness, straight nose, hair color, religion, living arrangements, hobbies, whatever! But the huge bag of socialization-structures that frequently comes with self-identified ethnicity? OMG THE WITCHES!

I think most of the indignation isn't about their choice, its the fact that they apparently feel comfortable announcing their choice with a straight up acknowledgement of racial profiling.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Besides, I don't think I'm the kind of person that a girl would like to date anyways.

Give it a few years for the demographics to turn around and you will be a hot commodity. Most people never realize that beyond high school/college available women outnumber available men so they keep acting like the reverse is true and making their own lives difficult, but you are perceptive enough that you should figure it out.

 

[Farm Boy]

I dunno, jackelgull, I didn't get very into the internet mating/dating scene. So yea, I generally considered it pretty damned rude if I called and asked a girl out and she just ignored the one call to three calls(and trying to guess if you're actually being ignored rather than unlucky on timing) rather than responding the first time with, "Not interested."

Tim: We're comfortable with people being choosy as all get out for shallow reasons. But the confusing bundle of cultural/religious/ethnic baggage? Newp, that one's a third rail for decent human beings somehow.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Tim: We're comfortable with people being choosy as all get out for shallow reasons. But the confusing bundle of cultural/religious/ethnic baggage? Newp, that one's a third rail for decent human beings somehow.

It is unreasonable, admittedly. But I did sign on for the zero tolerance anti racism campaign a long time ago and don't intend to jump ship. Hopefully future generations will have the luxury of saying people like me are obsolete.

 

[Domen]

Census: More people identify as mixed race

So this means (a) more people are being born into multiethnic families, or (b) more people are feeling confident declaring their multiple ethnicities, or (c) some of each.

There can be also (d) immigrants who declare mixed race come to the U.S. or (e) mixed race people have more children.

As far as I know Hispanic immigrants declare also races apart from Hispanicness (for example you can be "White, Hispanic").

So probably increased influx of Hispanic immigrants (who feel being mixed race already when crossing the border) is a factor.

 

[Domen]

(b) more people are feeling confident declaring their multiple ethnicities

This is almost certainly a factor too.

But please note that someone who is 50 / 50 White / Native American may declare mixed race, while someone who is 90 / 10 White / Native American may also declare mixed race. So if a 50 / 50 guy then marries a 100 / 0, their children will be 75 / 25 but will still declare mixed race. Etc. So increasing % of people declaring mixed race does not necessarily mean that mixed marriages are becoming so much more frequent. Ancestry from mixed relationships of the past is constantly getting passed on to new generations and can be getting "diluted" (as in example given above), but people still declare it. For this reason even if people suddenly totally stop marrying outside of their ethnicities, declarations of mixed race will probably continue to increase in number for some years / decades.

So current trends might be different than this data seems to suggest.

======================================

Another tendency that I can think of, is that genetic tests for ancestry have become popular in the USA during the last 10 years.

Many people probably order such genetic tests, "discover their unknown roots", and then start to declare them in censuses.

Sorry for putting into doubt your optimism, but I think these other possibilities must also be taken into consideration.