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Executive Order: Immediate Turnchat

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Democracy Game II' started by ice2k4, Mar 4, 2007.

  1. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    The summary thread was already updated prior to your post, or are you saying update it after the above updates you have requested?

    Summary post
     
  2. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Isn't this thread the instruction thread?
    All instructions are in the first post, the closing save is in another post, the log is just that I moved 1 unit and made 2 screenshots.

    Summary thread is Methos' job.
     
  3. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    I'm not saying that the more experienced players should have precedence over the new players, but if you were around the last demogame, you would have a better understanding of my decisions. Also, I don't care about votes.

    Doing it as we speak.
     
  4. 730195

    730195 Warlord

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    Some thoughts:

    1. I applaud the bold move. I don't personally feel is was absolutely necessary, but it did seem to speed up something that was looking like an all too early stumbling block.

    2. When we are micro-managing locations, how about having the grid ON and move the camera back a bit so we can see all there is to see in one picture?

    3. OT - why are there forest tiles that seem to be just sprouting? Same way with initial pictures, but they are fully sprouted when I load the save.
     
  5. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    It looks like a graphics mod, or perhaps the detail level was set lower than what you use.
     
  6. Shattered

    Shattered Lord of Utopia

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    I don't believe there should be an uproar over ice2k4's decision. I think he made it cause it needed to be done. I support our leader and I trust his judgement. Besides, if we have to poll everything, including unit movement, it will make for a slow dull game.
     
  7. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    There've been "movements" before to have 1 turn turnchats, but even that would take far too long. There's 400+ turns in a game (back in Civ3, 540). That would mean games would be going on for 2 years, by which many people would simply leave because there's nothing going on.
     
  8. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Oh yeah, it got something done all right. It started turning people off from the DEMOCRACY game already. C'mon give the rest of us a chance to participate will you? I still haven't seen a real screenshot and all of a sudden someone decides to move our guys around!

    Now is it true the Chieftan can move our scouts around at whim or is it that he can do that only when we fail to make a group decision? If the latter, then you really have to give us time to make a decision and not just fly off half-cocked and do something. I'm quite a bit annoyed that I've been one of the few active posters here prior to the actual start of the game and I don't even get to see the start position before things start happening.

    SLOW DOWN!!!!

    Different stages of the game require different paces. There is nothing wrong with calling for a special session to move a scout but give us a decent chance to object. More than two hours please and no opened ended stuff like this one. It would have been better to call the session for a specific time so we'd all know how long we had to object. And please don't do this stuff on the weekends. Most importantly, make sure we've had some decent discussion where we all can participate.

    Once more,

    Slow down!!!!!

    EDIT: Just looked at the screenshots posted earlier in this thread. Why in heaven's name did we move the scout NE when there are a couple hills to the WEST! How does that move by our scout help us decide where to place our first city? :confused:

    Public Notice: Anyone interested in staging a coup has my support.
     
  9. Gaidynne

    Gaidynne Chieftain

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    There have been several recent references in posts above to polls slowing everything down and being unnecessary at this stage in the game. I think these references miss the point of my posts.

    I don't advocate that we poll every decision. Rather, I believe that we should play the saves as we have planned & scheduled for the last couple of weeks. Ice's decision to make an "emergency" unit move was objectionable to me because it took the matter out of the normal routine. We had a normal play session scheduled. We could have waited till then to make our next move. We could have discussed what to do during that session. The scheduling of an "emergency" session simply denied the vast majority of us an opportunity to participate. This is bad precedent. It will haunt us later when other Chieftains exercise similar authority and cite Ice's conduct as precedent which has been recognized/approved since the outset of this game.

    Finally, to the several posters suggesting that we should stop carping about this issue because we haven't been around as long as some of the veteran DG'ers and therefore just don't understand that this is how things are done, I reply as follows:

    Our veteran DG'ers may have let us all down. Couldn't it have been anticipated that we might want to move a unit or two around before we actually played our first real session? If so, why wasn't this issue addressed by our more experienced members in the many weeks leading up to the start of the game? For these same more experienced members to now express righteous indignation at questions directed to the poor timing of the emergency turnchat is perplexing to me. If you all knew this type of emergency session would be necessary, why wasn't it built into our system ahead of time? Why wasn't the Chieftain's authority to do this sort of thing more expressly outlined?

    Again, I suggest that our Citizens' rights to participate in gameplay should be respected. This means playing the game during regularly scheduled turnchats. Emergency turnchats, especially those that are announced and played within four minutes, are simply a denial of everyone's right to play.
     
  10. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Gaidynne,

    I think more than a few "vets" did contemplate that - we've certainly used them before. I know I expected them to be used at various times. I quite deliberately didn't put in any initiative I proposed sections about running special sessions. In the "Playing the Save" initiative, the only reference to special session is basically to treat them as any other session. There should be an instruction thread, a game log and the final save.

    A couple things bother me about this session. First and foremost - the speed of it. I completely understand emergencies. They happen, and they will delay games at various points. The thread was created at 12:15, and an instruction saying don't play it if anyone objects. The designated DP picked it up at 12:17, two minutes later. An objection was posted at 12:19, 4 minutes after the OP.

    An objection was posted within 5 minutes, and that wasn't in time?!?!. It would have been greatly preferable to see the Chieftain state that there was going to be a special session to move one or more units, and request advice on that specific scouting. On Monday, make the move.

    The other part that did bother me is purely from the traditional/vet part of me. It was the cause of my post about an instruction thread/save/etc. Instruction threads, even for special sessions, should be labeled and formatted the same as other instruction threads. It makes them easier to find and work with. As they are a game session, they need to be logged in the summary thread as well.

    I think this could have been handled better than it was. It is, however, done. As such, we the citizens need to decide we need to force future behavior through an initiative, or if simple public pressure will be enough. That is the objective of our ruleset - keep it simple, and only pass the laws we decide are needed.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  11. Gaidynne

    Gaidynne Chieftain

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    Ravensfire,

    I agree with most of your post's content and very much appreciate the tone.

    The part of your post I thought most important was where you pointed out that the matter is now done and we now have to figure out what to do about it. My suggestion is not a Judicial Review or a Coup. Rather, I think that the discussion we are having is important simply because it makes clear whether our Citizens feel that emergency turnchats, announced and played within 5 minutes, are appropriate. I believe they are not in keeping with the goals of a Democracy Game and should not be utilized. I hope that others express their opinions. At a minimum, this discussion thread will be helpful during Term 2 Elections, when we can look back and see each candidate's position on the issue.

    With that being said, I extend this challenge. If you believe the Chieftain can and should require emergency gameplay sessions, please state your position here unequivocally.

    Gaidynne
     
  12. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    24 hour delay from notice of session and execution. Notice should include reasoning and scope of session.

    1 day isn't a significant delay, plus it allows for some period of citizen comment on actions to be taken.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  13. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Our right to pareticipate includes making decisons in the FORUMS and not durings game play sessions.

    We haven't even pressed enter the first time and already it's a chat based game. Gimme a break guys.

    For what it's worth, I am totally against emergency game play sessions. I am not against turn sessions where all we do is move a scout one tile as long as we have at least 24 hour notice of said session and have some sort of citizen veto power over it.
     
  14. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I draw your attention to this thread on capitol placement. The first mention of the possibility of a special session was made March 2nd, 10:18 AM, in the form of a question. I counted twelve people in the 1st page of that thread (on the settings I use) in favor of moving the scout in a special session, and zero against.

    Two days later, the move was finally made.

    Was it a good idea to have no delay between posting instructions and playing? No, there should have been a delay. It is certainly arguable that some people wouldn't know because it was not obvious from the thread the discussion was in that a special session was being planned. But don't go acting like there was no citizen input at all. Some of the people condemning the action here were very supportive of it in the other thread.

    And no, we're not going to take the weekends off because certain people aren't here. :p
     
  15. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    Can we also try and make thread subjects on the forum reflect what is going on inside them?! I.e., the discussion whether to move the scout could've been held in a topic with a 100x better subject as "Our capital site".
     
  16. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    The discussion wasn't just mentioned in "The Capitol" thread, as I also brought it up in the DP thread with this post. Everyone had two days to discuss it, in which some players did, so I'm confused to the statements suggesting it wasn't expected nor had any discussion as two days is plenty.

    Note: The discussion I refer to is on the move, not on the ask for objections and get one within four.
     
  17. 730195

    730195 Warlord

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    I'll try from the newbie's perspective:
    • Chieftain "can" require emergency sessions? Sure. I would like to see the game tempo maintained and if subsequent steps are delayed by uncertainty in the first step, then taking that first step seems like a good idea.
    • Chieftain "should" require emergency sessions? Not sure what "should" means here. Is the Chieftain obligated to call emergency sessions? I think not, but he can always be voted out if the players don't like what he's doing.
    • Full disclosure. I suggest that once the subject of an emergency session arises, ALL discussion would be moved to an EMERGENCY SESSION thread so everyone knows the previous schedule may change.
    • Planning ahead. Being new here, I'm a bit surprised more experienced folks (on all sides) didn't see this coming. I'm a fairly casual player and generally settle where I start, but it's clear that many here give serious thought to being more selective. With that in mind, the potential for an emergency session could have been acknowledged in advance with some rough times on when things might happen. This would help reduce the surprise factor.
     
  18. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Wrong! All of the decisions we have made this game, have been made in the forum. Just because we all call a play session a turnchat does not mean the chat itself has anything to do with the decision making process.
     
  19. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    Eek, stop confusing the world ;) . In all honesty I am still somewhat amazed by the swift action Ice took but I also have to admit there was a discussion going on that I failed to spot. That is why I, seriously, urge the powers that be to use more descriptive topic subjects and if time is running short please consider postponing the turn instead of hurrying it.

    And 730195, thanks for taking the effort to look at this from a newbee's perspective. But shall we now move on, 1 SE i.e.?!
     
  20. 730195

    730195 Warlord

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    I assume you mean the scout. If so, you have my vote.
     

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