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Expanded concepts: Pillaging

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by circeus, Jun 12, 2020.

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  1. circeus

    circeus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    58
    (Previous threads: Conservation and National Parks, Corporations and economic victory, Uniques)

    Pillaging is part of the game which I feel has been woefully underused, and could go into many different directions. We can think of what can be pillaged, who can pillage, who can repair, and the diplomatic consequences of pillaging.

    The What
    Currently, only three things can be pillaged: Buildings, Districts and Improvements. I would add to the mix pillaging of Wonders, Great Works and in-production structures. Pillaging production was an actual spy mission in Civ 3, which would actively remove part of construction progress, it should be returned as part of pillaging options in war (how much production should be lost is a number/playtest issue I won't elaborate upon here). IMO, there is absolutely no reason that Wonders also couldn't be pillaged, temporarily halting their bonuses (though the value of doing so may vary wildly). This of course also applies to all natural disasters. Finally, Great Works (at the very least great works of art and relics) should be able to be vandalized or desecrated. One could also imagine the idea of stealing them as war loot, a far more likely outcome historically than thievery by a spy!

    The Who: Pillaging
    I am of the firm belief that spies, if they can sabotage one district, should be able to sabotage any of them (including wonders as above). I'm on the fence about civilian units, but Apostles? Oh dear, Apostles should at least have a promotions that allows then to use a charge for pillaging anything that generates faith as long as the city follows a different religion or no religion (extra bonus is if it does damage in a way similar to religious defeat or condemning a heretic, but less of it). Alternatively, Apostles don't use a charge, but take damage from the pillaging (if it kills them, it counts as being condemned as heretic).

    The Who: Repairing
    Currently only units (and only engineers and builders) can repair improvements and only cities can repair everything else. Why? Allow Engineers and Archeologists to at least contribute to repairing buildings and districts! Engineers can't even help repairing a district they can help build... This would give Engineers late game relevance since they often become of fairly little use after you're done with railroad building. If Great Works and Wonders can be damaged, again, Archeologists should be able to assist in their repair. Also, why not give a project so a city can repair the improvement on a given tile?

    The Thereafter
    Currently, the only time that pillaging will affect anything about your diplomacy is if someone somewhere has the Pillager agenda (there's not even a single leader with a pillaging-related agenda!). This is preposterous. Pillaging should generate grievances the same as capturing cities does (possibly to different people depending what exactly has been pillaged). An Heritage Lover agenda would hate people who damage great works or wonders, and love those who help restore them. The disaster assistance projects are currently entirely too useless. As far as I can tell, in particular, targets get absolutely no bonuses whatsoever from Send Aid projects. The production should be poured into the target city or cities that are repairing on the affected tiles. That way players would have some sort of incentive to actually call for aid on themselves (especially at lower difficulties). Repairing wonders in particular could give rise to a new international competition with unique bonuses (such as sharing the wonder's bonus or bonuses with the winning civ).
     
  2. civfan_999

    civfan_999 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Pillaging a wonder would be a cool spy mission.

    And I like the idea that pillaging should generate grievances.

    This is a cool idea, but if implemented, it shouldn't have 100% success like pillaging a farm. That would be too OP. Maybe something like:
    • 10% chance of success (add in a melee unit promotion that increases it to 20%)
    • 50% chance of taking damage (success or fail)
    • 25% chance the unit dies (fail only)
    Going a complete other direction, maybe this "war loot" action is something that requires a whole new unit. Like what they did with the soothsayer in apocalypse mode, you could have an actual support unit that moves with the army and is the only one capable of stealing loot from theater squares, holy sites, and banks (great merchant power lets art be in banks sometimes). I would likewise want to see a low chance of success and a non-zero chance of death to keep things interesting.
     
  3. circeus

    circeus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
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    Note that I make no exact discussion of the mechanics of this. I think there should be some way that units can be used to steal great works. Just as with a pillage progress mission, the exact mean is an implementation issue and could have a number of approaches taken.
     

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