Expansion Civilizations

[SmokeyD]

Prior to the Union's westward expansion, the Viceroyalty of New Spain controlled most of the South West United States, as well as the northern half Central America, with all the vast resources those regions had to offer. It wasn't until the Mexican-American war, by which time the Mexicans had lost a significant portion of its territory with the revolution, and subsequent annexation by the United States, of Texas, that America was unequivocally the military superior. It's interesting to note, however, that Mexico had suffered a series of civil wars, revolutions and foreign interventions prior to the outbreak of the Mexican-American war, while America had been pretty much left alone. Had things been on a more equal footing, it's not gaurunteed the US would have emerged the victor.

 

[Xineoph]

And that's why, History Bites.

 

[Brighteye]

Can someone spout a little history of the Polish empire (or Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, as SmokeyD put it)? I've never heard of it.
As for Civ being eurocentric, you could say that's because we're using a Western idea of civilisation. You could also say that maybe it's because Europe happens to have more than its fair share of influential empires.
This isn't a slur at other continents; a reason why your continent didn't have lots of civilisations could be that one civilisation was so powerful/civilised it dominated too much.
The other point is that ancient civilisations' influence depends on what happened after them. Mali was a big empire, but because Africa's role history was as a place that was colonised by other empires no-one worries about the influence of Mali on the Africans that came after them, because it doesn't matter too much now.
Since Europe, and now America and China, were the major powers in the recent world, civilisations/empires that heavily influenced them are generally better known than larger empires that have, through no fault of their own, not influenced world history as much.

 

[Xineoph]

It was a huge ****ing empire. Took up like all of Eastern Europe from what i remember. But it was your generic big empire....it had some influence on history, but nothing so major, that anyone will remember it.

Israel on the other hand..., well people still speak of it today.

 

[Breunor]

It was a huge ****ing empire. Took up like all of Eastern Europe from what i remember. But it was your generic big empire....it had some influence on history, but nothing so major, that anyone will remember it.

Israel on the other hand..., well people still speak of it today.

OK, I've stayed out of this forum, but....

Poland had an absolutely CRITICAL influence on history, as did many of the other civ's excluded in the game. It was huge, powerful, important. They had an empire that went from the Vistula almost to the Urals, lead by a powerful high-quality cavalry.

Poland was THE Great power in Eastern Europe before the rise of Sweden and then Russia, after Germany fell apart. Austria's rise largely came after Poland's decline. Indeed, they were powerful before then also -- they were a major political entity from the late 10th through the 17th century.

Modern Poland essntially was unified under its second King, Boleslav the Brave, in the 10th century. They converted to Chrisianity. In the north, the Prussians were pagans.

Internal struggles broke them up in the 12th century, and Poland was largely divided.

In the 13th cuentury, the Poles invited the Teutonic Knights to help against the Prussians. This was a mistake, since after conquering Prussia, the Knights became foes of Poland for the next 200 years.

Like many Eastern European kingdoms, they suffered from the 13th century Mongol raids and were essentially a rump state.

But the 14th century, with the Mongols gone, saw Poland reunify. They started to take territory in Modern Russia.

1385 was a key year, when Poland and Lithuania united, basically to handle the menace of The Teutonic knights and their future great enemy, they state then known as Muscovy. With a powerful king, they were one of the most powerful nations in the world, led militarily by a noble cavalry.

1410 may be the Polish/Lithuanian high point. They decisively defeated the Teutonic Knights.

In the 14th and 15th century, Poland became a true powerhouse. They were aided by the fact that the black death had less influence there than in most of Europe. At that point they were a cultural and enlightened power, allowing Jews to settle there freely; Poland would have one of the largest Jewish popualtions in the world for the next 500 years.

Poland's downfall did not come from external conquest, but from very, very bad internal cocnflicts. Their assembly of nobles was given too much power, and their kings were hamstrung. Even worse, it was hard to get anything passed, so they had virtual anarchy, taken up buy local nobility. They were still strong enough in 1630's to defeat an Altaic attack, while Europe was embroiled in the 30 years' war.

Poland's biggest ally was France, as Catholic nations. Indeed, a problem Poland faced was its elected king in 1573, after a long and desturbing interregnum, left to become king of France (Henri III). Poland was considered the richer kingdom.

The end of Polish power was the mid 17th century. Civil wars eroded their power completely. The worst was called prophetically 'The Deluge', started by a revolt of the Cossacks, who particularly attacked Jews. The Russians invaded and took over Eastern Poland. The Swedes took over the rest of the country. The Poles eventually unified shortly and booted them out, but this ended a long period of Polish tolerance. Poland had to cede Prussia to the house of Brandenberg.

Poland also lost power because it remained an agranian, feudal type state with a very weak king. The industrialization that added great power to the nearby states largely passed over Poland.

And Polish weakness was accompanied by strength in powerful neighbors: Austria, Muscovy now is Russia, and the Ottoman power extended to Europe.

Poland came to an end at the end of the 18th century. The house of Brandenberg was a world German power, called Prussia for a variety of complex reasons I'm not getting into now. In a series of partitions, Poland was taken over by Russia, Austria, and Prussia. Poland was too weak to resist. More of Poland fell to Russia after Napoleon's defeat, and it didn't regain independence until after WWI.

Please don't say history wasn't influenced by the Poles! (or the Turks, Poles, Koreans, etc.)!


Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Depravo]

Anyone who thinks Byzantium and Classical Rome are the same should be beaten.

I don't remember anyone saying they were 'the same', but anyone who denies t'one grew out of t'other should be spanked.

It's like saying Anglo-Saxon England and Victorian England should be two civs. They were clearly very different, but equally clearly one was a development on the other.

 

[asylumlost]

If you want to know about polands history may I suggest to people reading James Mitchener's Poland .It is a fictional novel but heavily laced with historical facts (as most of his books are). He is even kind enough to point out what is fact and fiction

 

[Macezek]

I've written about Poland before, on pg. 8 of the topic, but I will list some major points again...

At the height of the Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth, Poland was one of the largest European kingdoms. For over 300 years, they owned all the land that today belongs to Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, Poland, a large chunk of western Russia, and most of Ukraine. Major cities included Smolensk, Kiev, L'viv, Minsk, Riga, and Vilnus. Some of these are now capitals of the countries I listed.

Here are some links to Euratlas.com, to give you some pictures of the size of european kingdoms, and the last one is map of the world today...
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1700.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big2000.htm

As for Poland's intelectual and cultural contribution... Poland founded one of Europe's first universities over 700 years ago, the Jagiellonian University in Krakow, which is still open to this day. Poland was probably the most open and accepting kingdom, allowing Jews and Gypsies and other minorities to live in relative calm (compared to other European kingdoms). Nikolas Copernikus was a Polish astronomer who lived in Torun - he introduced the idea that the earth is round and orbits the sun. Frederick Chopin was a Polish pianist, one of the greatest in the world. Marie Sklodowska Curie was a Polish scientist (living in France), and she discovered radiation and the elements Radium and Polonium.

Western Europe is well represented in Civ4, with England, Germany, France, and Spain, while eastern and central Europe are only represented by 1 country, Russia. Poland would help round that out.

...you guys have to understand that it's not all about "civilizations", it's also about "potential markets" (people from which countries are gonna buy this game)...

The Civilization series is actually very popular in Poland, and many people know about the game. So if you're looking at "potential markets" you could sell many more copies of any Civilization game in Poland, if you just included Poland as a civ.

 

[merchantoftolbi]

Hmm..... tough decision, I suppose Sweden, Canada, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Madasgascar, Austraillia... are all interesting choices that most likely will not make the cut.

 

[King Flevance]

Can someone care to explain why Canada should be a civ? If Canada should be in it then why not South Africa, New Zealand or Montenegro for that matter

Why not? The more the merrier. Hell, lets add in Fraggle Rock as a civ while we're at it.
I see it like this, if you can compete in the Olympics as a country, you earned yourself a spot in the game Civilization.

BTW Woot! USA almost totally stormed Snowboard Cross taking all the golds... dammit Lindsay had to show her ass. That was funny tho.

 

[The Swede]

Vikings
Iroquois
Celts

 

[crazyd2000]

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm

This is map of Europe circa 1600. On it, show it to me please something bigger than Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Ottoman is bigger

 

[vdogamez]

Vatican city! LOL!

Seriously, though, what if there were civs who made cities in the ocean, like you can do in that one game, Alpha centauri? Power to the Homo Aquatus!

 

[Older than Dirt]

Where are the Ethiopians? The Zulus? The Pygmies?

The Ethiopians were a powerhouse. In B.C. times the attacked Judah even and gave the Egyptian headaches for millenia. History even has a Queen of the Ethiopians - Candace, who lived about 35 A.D. In fact Ethiopia is one of the oldest continuing countries in the world. At least they would add some colour to the game and it would be someone the Italians could defeat (with help). Do you not grow weary of the same old pasty looking units?

BTW JBG, In the swamps here in Houston we got fire ants and I heerd tell of piss ants but we hain't got no ped ants. Is that some blue belly Yankee kind uh ant? (To be read with the voice of Festus T. Hagin in mind.)

 

[Xineoph]

The Ethiopians attacked Judah now? oO, i know they were the only non-colonized part of Africa.

The Zulus i can understand somewhat...but what did the Pygmies do? No seriously, if they did something that affected the power in their reigion, then kewl.

BTW does anyone know anything about the Tu'i Tongan Empire? I can't find any maps...i can find leaders and a UU for them. But that's about it.

 

[dajoa2006]

as for your civ choice, i agree strongly, the world has had many civs, known to us by tradition and others whihc have yet to be traced.

I will reccomend 'harun Yahya's book called 'lost civs' a very interesting book which deals with civs who claimed to be undestroyable.

 

[Breunor]

Where are the Ethiopians? The Zulus? The Pygmies?

The Ethiopians were a powerhouse. In B.C. times the attacked Judah even and gave the Egyptian headaches for millenia. History even has a Queen of the Ethiopians - Candace, who lived about 35 A.D. In fact Ethiopia is one of the oldest continuing countries in the world. At least they would add some colour to the game and it would be someone the Italians could defeat (with help). Do you not grow weary of the same old pasty looking units?

Hmm,

There is no question that the ancient kingdom of Axum was a powerhouse; the Persians considered it one of the great empires. They controlled a lot of East Africa and modern Yemen.

Not sure about the attack on Judah? There were clearly powerful ties, though.

I'd be interested in any information on this!

Best wishes,

Bruce

 

[jaythewise]

some really odd choices here...

Judah? what?

I go for Celts, Zulu, Vikings (how on earth arent they in the original????)

Also Its tough to not have an entire continent full of millions of people not being represented, even if they were mainly hunter-gatherers, we need a civ to represent north american natives....

 

[jaythewise]

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm

This is map of Europe circa 1600. On it, show it to me please something bigger than Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Ottoman is bigger

Poland was a paper state, not unlike lithuania or the holy roman empire, they didnt do much you must admit...


When people start naming states like ancient judah and poland, lithuania, I start to think a country like canada is a viable choice then lol

 

[Dower Wi]

This is map of Europe circa 1600. On it, show it to me please something bigger than Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Right now, Canada is bigger than every country on Earth except Russia. Does this mean that we should include Canada?