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Expansion Management

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by JustMormegil, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. JustMormegil

    JustMormegil Chieftain

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    So the situation is: as Carthage I attacked Rome, completely wiped out its forces and took both Rome and Milan. My expansion score seemed to be ok:
    upload_2019-4-16_23-11-39.png

    upload_2019-4-16_23-11-55.png

    After that I took their last holding on Italia - Pompei, and guess what has happened:
    upload_2019-4-16_23-12-36.png
    upload_2019-4-16_23-12-53.png

    Got Unstable and explode after 2 turns.

    How can I avoid such situations or calculate impact in advance? I can't even raise / refuse from conqured city...
    How do you manage expansion?

    Cheers.
     
  2. Orbii

    Orbii Warlord

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    Very generally, your expansion stability is dictated by the fraction you can see when you mouse over Expansion, which is Non-Core Population divided by Core Population. Population in Historical/Contested tiles count as 1 Non-Core Population, and population in Foreign/Foreign Core tiles count for more (I think 2?) (I'm a bit iffy on these numbers as a whole; the exact values should be in the Civilopedia). Your core population is the bottom of the fraction and is simply the total population of cities in your core multiplied against your current Era (e.g. Ancient = 1; Classical = 2).

    So generally speaking, to keep your expansion stability good you want to grow your Core cities as much as possible, and keep your non-Core cities as small as possible, while also teching steadily to reach new eras and get a bigger modifier for your Core population. I recall reading on some Argentine strategies that having only one city in your Core provides a bigger modifier, but I'm not certain on that.

    In any event, I imagine that for Carthage you've put at most three cities in your core, and likely only two, which is one reason for why your expansion score has gone awry. You also have some pretty big Historical cities (southeastern Iberia) that are weighing down your stability. Lastly, it's not the addition of two cities to your population which sent things sideways --- I think that it was actually discovering Calendar that did this. Stability is only checked at certain events - Stability Checks - and discovering a technology is one of those checks, so effectively when you discovered Calendar your bad expansion stability updated and started displaying to you as a problem.

    Lastly, in general Expansion will always be dragging your stability down, so you'll want to offset that with Economic Growth, stability combos, and religious unity.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    There's nothing wrong in this guide per se, but just for clarity: the expansion stability calculation is not just core population divided by periphery population. In fact it depends on by how much percent the periphery population exceeds the core population (i.e. 100% if double etc.) but even then it's not linear; instead it grows like a sigmoid curve, i.e. quickly at first and then more slowly.
     
  4. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    Depopulate the periphery.
     
    Imp. Knoedel likes this.
  5. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    • Jails and Courthouses lower the periphery population score.
    • Each population in a core city is worth more with every new era.
    • Despotism and Nationhood are amazing get out of jail free cards for rapidly dropping a periphery population.
    • In cities with a lot of nearby food, obtain some specialist slots and turn on specialist prioritization to get it to grow in population slower without sacrificing its value.
    • You could also switch to Tributaries and prioritize building military units in periphery cities that are growing too fast. Stops population growth and builds military units super fast
     
  6. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    Also, pro-tip here:

    You can always cheat using World Builder.
     
  7. Allain[Rus]

    Allain[Rus] Chieftain

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    A mixture of Russian and English ... Brrrr ... what a horror.
    And yes, stability is not calculated every move, and under different conditions, it happened with you, you expanded, expanded, learned the technology, recalculation took place and that's all. For Carthage, you can say at the beginning of the game, I don’t even know what to suggest, later there will be good Civic for expansion, or buildings that increase stability. But in any case, a large expansion not across historical boundaries threatens collapse for most countries. If you are new to this mod, which, by the way, is already more than 10 years old, then I want to say, put up =) this is not a mod about capturing the world, historical victories are of most interest ... well, for me at least it’s so =)

    Moderator Action: Original Russian text replaced by machine translation. Communication on this board is in English only. Please let me know if you want to supply your own translation and I will replace it. Future posts in other languages will be directly deleted. -- Leoreth
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2019
  8. citizenofdoom

    citizenofdoom Chieftain

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    well for me capturing the world is creating history, save that civ from its "historical victory" lose
     
  9. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Also, if you have only one Core city, your core population score will be doubled during the classical era and medieval eras, and increase by 50% for every subsequent era.
     
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  10. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    Huh, I didn't realize that.

    So if you're Phoenicia, and want to expand across the Mediterranean, it might actually make more sense to only settle Carthage (and ignore Iol or the other city you can found in your North African core) since Carthage grows fast and its population score gets multiplied by 2? Iol grows quite a bit slower, and never reaches the same level as Carthage's population, so in terms of stability, ignoring it might be better. (Iol is useful for commerce and production and resources, but if you're focusing on food/growth for stability, you don't see nearly as much benefit).
     
    1SDAN likes this.
  11. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    For Carthage it's best to have few cities period. Your capital, your old capital Sur, Athens, one city in Iberia (as long as you keep the Romans from settling there), and three in Italy. Even then you will be shaky or unstable for most of the game, but it should allow you to survive until getting the UHV. I clicked "one more turn" after winning the UHV and collapsed on the spot.
     
  12. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I didn't even keep Sur when I played Carthage. Once I settle Qart Hadsht I disbanded Sur's defenses, declared war on Jerusalem and let their units meander into my city to conquer it. Instantly moves the Capital to North Africa so it cuts away half of UHV1.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  13. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Wow, you have discovered a new palace trick!
     
  14. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I always assumed everyone already knew about it. You capital moves when you lose a your current one, so the easiest way to move the Capital from Sur to Qart Hadsht is to just lose Sur.
     
  15. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    It's new to me. Do you even conquer Athens then? If not how do you do the military buildup without Sur and Athens?
     
  16. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Mercenaries. I rush Atlas Elephants with Gold.
     
  17. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    I chose not to do that as I thought I wouldn't be able to get the 5000 gold in time. And even then it was tight. How did you resolve that issue?
     
  18. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Lots of Merchants, running at 0% Science, building wealth, and hoping my last Great Person would not be an Engineer. Also, IIRC I ended up taking Greece after I took Rome.
     
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  19. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Just tried your strat, 1SDAN. I left Sur empty and declared on the indies after founding Carthage. Guess what, they just didn't take it, neither them nor the barbs, which either didn't enter my borders or were killed by other civs. So just before 300 BC I had to declare war on Persia for them to take it. But then Greece, which had declared on me the turn after, ended up taking it. The long-term consequence of having had to declare on Persia was that the negative diplomacy it caused made them never open borders with me again, cutting off access to India for my merchants. Italy was easily taken with about eight phants and that was that. However, after my Golden Age the Romans declared war on me again and came with an army that was so massive that I basically had to evacuate Italy to let them take it back. And that led to my collapse. I think I should have settled a second city in my core before founding Qart-Hadasht in Spain, which I could have left for later. I also thought of liberating Italy right after getting the second UHV but I didn't know how that would affect stability.

    TL;DR: Does liberating cities cause instability?
     
  20. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I'm not sure, but I can confirm that getting Jerusalem to take Sur is a pain. You have to hope they build a lot of Archers and get good combat results enough that they'll be comfortable with conquering your city. Backup strat is to DoW Babylonia and get them to take it. Greece is also a backup strat, though I like trading with them so I usually leave it as a last resort.
     

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