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Expansion Management

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by JustMormegil, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Right, declaring on Babylonia is less likely to have long-term consequences as either Greece or Persia usually ends up conquering Babylonia at some point. Greece is indeed crucial for tech trades. I guess with the Romans it depends on where they send their troops. In a previous game I had no difficulty in keeping them out of Italy, probably because they were busy taking Greece, the Levant (both of which were owned by me) and Egypt. In my last game, however, it looks like they united their entire army and sent it down Italy. Btw I think they're way overpowered, never collapsing even without having a single city in their core. And then those free armies literally teleporting all over the place. I think there should be a rule that they only get the free armies if they are in control of Rome.
     
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  2. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    I just tried this strategy again. I got the stability right this time, as I settled Lol rather than Iberia. However, Rome had settled two cities in Iberia, and conquering those slowed down my invasion of Italy, so I was only able to conquer their southern city and Rome. Furthermore, I was way off the mark with getting the gold, and wasn't even able to get one trade mission done, as Rome was occupying the Levant (another benefit of keeping Sur: access to the east). The second GM was going to take another 20 turns to even be generated. The only time I won Carthage was with my strategy of conquering Athens--which happened to have the Ishtar Gates in it--early with Sacred Bands, keeping Sur, and conquering Rome with Swordsmen, albeit with low stability throughout. This made me wonder about your tech order. Do you go Currency first, or Generalship? And if you go Currency first, do you get the elephants in time? I'm not satisfied with my previous strategy as it seemed to rely on the Ishtar Gates. I feel like the tech order might be my main problem.
     
  3. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    It's been months so I can't remember. IIRC I didn't use Elephants to defend against the first conqueror's event, so I probably went for Currency first.
     
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  4. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Just did some more tries, using your strategy as well as my old strategy. This UHV just hinges too much on luck. I'm not able to make yours work, whatever I try. Mine depends on Greece building Ishtar gates, which they do around half the time, the other half they build the Great Cothon. Only in the former case it is possible to not beeline Currency directly, as Athens and Carthage can each generate a GM with their respective wonders. For conquering Greece with four bought Sacred Bands, you either need to wait for them to move their Hoplite out of Athens or spawn with two or three flipped chariots. And then you also need some good tech trades, which are also not always possible. And even when all of this goes right it's hard to do. I'm having this general frustration with about half of UHVs that, unless you play on Heir, they depend a frustrating lot on luck. Regular RFC was much more doable on Monarch, and those who were in for a tougher challenge played on Emperor. Even for relatively experienced civ/RFC players this stuff is only possible on sandbox mode.
     
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  5. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Settling Utica 1E of the spawn plot really helps with getting Babylonia to conquer your Phoenician capital

    Current Strategy is to first research Arithmetics and build a Harbor in Qart Hadsht, switch to Redistribution and Deification and add a Granary in the build queue before the Harbor. Once the city's borders expand, likewise add The Great Cothon.

    Tried and couldn't take the northern most Italian city in time. In the game I won UHV Rome collapsed when I conquered their capital so I didn't have this problem. Also, I've found that Skirmishers are probably the best units for invasion and protection. They are really cheap, require a tech that is a prerequisite for Currency, and work really well against stacks. I am currently only settling 3 cities: Utica, and the 2 Qart-Hadashts: the Maghreb Carthage and the Iberian one with Silver and early access to Wine.

    Currently doing another Regent Normal Phoenicia UHV run will update this post over time.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  6. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Good call!

    How do you do your invasion? Do you launch a naval attack on the capital right away? I usually just walk the ellies across from Spain, but that's quite slow. Although on my first try I mostly relied on swordsmen which I landed in Italy with galleys. But this requires metal.

    Another good call.

    Edit: I just now thought of the possibility to gather the elephants on the wine in Sicily before attacking, but perhaps you were doing that all along.
     
  7. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Build my Skirmishers and Catapults in Carthage and Galleys and War Galleys in Iberia, send them via my 2 galleys to attack Naples.
     
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  8. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    What, so you go pure skirmishers? Never thought of that. Your opening moves work really well btw, get stuff up and running really quickly. I just did another run where I basically ignored the deadlines and just played until I had all the goals. Believe it or not but I only finished in 545 AD when my second GM reached Pataliputra. Also, I never realized that Republic gave free merchant slots. Do you get two GMs or only one?
     
  9. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Back when I won many months ago I popped 2 GMs IIRC. I have yet to start another game. Currently trying to win a Hindu URV as 1700 AD India.
     
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  10. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Okay, I'm giving up on this UHV. I tried the skirmisher trick. Went with 6 skirmishers and 2 cats to conquer Rome, then Milan. When I was at the gates of Pompeii in 130 BC with a bunch of skirmishers and catapults, they had one archer in the city. Rome's stability was on collapsing. Guess what? On the next turn a stack of 6 ballistas and 4 legions appeared in the city. How did they get there? Did Rome have 5 galleys at this point with which they had ferried the units over from other parts of the empire (rhetorical question)? I get that Rome gets help with conquering historical areas with some troops spawning in these regions. But how is it possible that they get 10 units spawn in their homeland? It's precisely this kind of stuff about DoC that I find extremely off-putting. Because of the out-of-proportion ratio of movement to years of civ, creating an accurate history simulator requires units spawning out of nowhere and teleportation, which is not exactly accurate either. This might create a nice, historical Roman empire but at the same time creates extremely unfair situations for the human player when playing as any civ close to Rome. I remember seeing an interview with Sid Meier in which he talks about punitive game mechanics and how they should be avoided to a minimum. This mechanic is especially punitive as it's arbitrary, unfair and game breaking. I think that DoC has many cool features, but these are pretty much wasted when the game is not playable. There is a trade-off between gameplay and realism and I think that a point has been reached where the balance has tipped too far in the direction of realism at the expense of gameplay.
     
  11. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Did Rome have a partial collapse? When a nation partially collapses a portion of the units in the the territories they lose return to their capital.
     
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  12. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Yep, I later realized that that must have been it. It's still a messed up dynamic though, and it happens a lot.
     
  13. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Emperor

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    That's under the scope of RiseandFall, which is to be rewritten at some point in the future.
     
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  14. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    Good to know
     
  15. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    In stead of letting Babylon conquer Sur, have you considered not getting Sur at all?

    I don't know if it still works, but I managed to achieve a victory by 1) sailing straight to Carthage, 2) Settle a city in the roman flipzone, 3) refuse the flip 4) capture their capitol before they found other cities (militia works wonders to draw out their toughest defenders) 5) setup/conquer a great merchant economy (quit research after conquest to avoid collapse due to instability)
     
  16. jorissimo

    jorissimo Warlord

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    That's the old palace trick, which was nerfed in the most recent version. Now you need to settle at least one city in the original core in order to be able to build a palace in Carthage.

    Interesting. Might try this, building a settler in Utica, which is usually possible before it gets conquered by Babylon/independents.
     
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  17. Orbii

    Orbii Warlord

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    Just beat the UHV on Regent/Normal. I'll start first with some comments relevant to the thread's stated purpose:
    • I settled three cities in the North African Core: Carthage, Oea 2SW, and Iol 4W or so west of Carthage (1 N of Dye). Never had an amazing expansion score after getting the UHV areas but could offset the -15 to -6 with other fields (Diplomatic stability was much more detrimental and what collapsed me once).
    • As with every civ, prioritize growth in the Core cities and don't whip them once expansion starts --- make sure to build Harbours and Graneries in them too to keep things going well; I also used Redistribution for stability purposes and for growth reasons.
    Then for the actual strategy elements:

    Spoiler Phoenicia Strategy :

    1. As already noted, Greece must not be building the Great Cothon. I find playing about five turns is enough to check on WB whether that's the case. With a decent computer that's about 5 to 8 minutes a check. If you don't want to WB then just play another ten minutes and lose the proper way I suppose. My Monarch run failed for this reason and I think the UHV is doable even without.
    2. Something I have not read at all in this thread (I think) is settling Kition on Cyprus as the Phoenician capital, which I thought was the agreed-upon best initial Phoenicia capital. It is literally unconquerable and a VERY solid city which I basically do nothing with but build 8-turn Settlers for most of the game. I settle that with the initial ship Archer/Settler and then load the Tyre Settler/Archer onto another Galley, which goes immediately for Carthage. The other Galley sits around for the next turn for the two Workers on spawn to be shipped over to Carthage.
    3. Revolt to Despotism/Deification on Turn 1. You have no cities anyways.
    4. Carthage builds a Baathist Temple ASAP to get 10 culture to build the Great Cothon. Afterwards, while waiting, Carthage starts on its Granary.
    5. For Tech, rush to Currency, prioritizing Math first on the way to get Catapults.
    6. I conquered Rome with 2 Catapults, 4 Sacred Bands, and 3 Skirmishers, starting on Turn 120. Rome never used its Legions against me and its Conquerors didn't spawn.
    7. In order, I settled as cities: Kition, Carthage, Oea, Messina, Barcino, Capua, Iol, and then Cordoba.
    8. Carthage rushes a Glassmaker as soon as it can and then always pushes for 2 Merchants; micro tiles between Messina and Oea and Carthage as necessary to maximize use of improved resources.
    9. Run 90% Gold / 10% Culture right after Currency. Along with two Great Merchants sent to Jerusalem (1800 Gold each) I had roughly 10 turns of 100% Science flex room. Second Great Merchant was generated and arrived in Jerusalem about five turns before the deadline, leaving that as flex room. Cities build Wealth after building Glassmakers.
    10. Greece is your tech buddy; I got about 3 techs from them, which is pretty good. They DoW'd with "Conquerors" against Kition, but could not because of the AI's naval incompetence. By then Kition has built the necessary Settlers anyhow.
    11. I went briefly into Manoralism to pump out more Workers after building the Great Cothon, but slipped back into Slavery for stability bonuses together with Despotism, Deification, and Redistribution, which is basically the early game combo.
    12. I never used Republic because it was bugged and only gave me 1 Scientist slot and no other specialist slots. You also need whips for infrastructure and army raising. I also used the mercenary UP a decent amount for Galleys.
    13. Two saves attached below: one right at the start of the war with Rome, and another for the win.
    14. Relevant screenshots: Core at the end, and the Stability screen
    upload_2019-5-28_22-48-41.png

    upload_2019-5-28_22-54-14.png



    Edit: Fixed Screenshot 2
     

    Attached Files:

  18. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Republic is working as intended. You only get free specialist slots for specialists types you've unlocked. You have writing so you get 1 Scientist slot. When you get Currency you will got 1 Merchant Slot, etc.
     
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  19. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    I only learned about this from earlier in this thread, but if you only have one city in your Core, its population counts double for expansion stability. From your screenshot, your other two core cities (Oea and Iol) had exactly the same population as your capital, so you could have gotten the same expansion stability from just having Carthage.

    It'd probably be possible to push for a higher core population with the other cities, especially if Carthage is focusing on production for the Great Cothon and Palace, and there's probably other benefits to having more cities in your core, but at least for stability, you got no benefit from having those two other cities.
     
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  20. Orbii

    Orbii Warlord

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    I was definitely aware of the single core city tip. Your second paragraph describes precisely why I settled Oea: to share Carthage's improved Ivory, Fish, Wheat, and Stone when Carthage was busy doing other things; Messina was settled for the same reason. Oea built my entire army while Messina pumped out Workers and ships. Once Oea was settled it's not much of a stretch to also settle Iol after all.
     

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