Expansive trait nerf?

[Polycrates]

Expansive trait was all about the fast workers and fast granaries. The health is really a fairly minor bonus that would let you settle away from freshwater and in heavier jungle, and help a bit with growth in the medieval period, but really not much.
The benefit was the lightning start that you would get from pumping out your workers more quickly and thus in greater number, and the ease of building granaries to a lesser extent.
Even as it was, the 50% bonus was closer to 33% or so since it didn't multiply the production coming from food surplus. 25% will be unnoticeable.
I think it was a well-balanced trait, and I really can't understand why it would be toned down.

 

[Kissamies]

Besides, EU = teh suk, so any explanation that comes from EU is no explanation at all.

Lies, blatant lies! I take the Ysalamiri over Ewoks and Gungans any day

Back on topic, I too wish for +3 health if they do this, small effect as it is in grand scheme of things.

 

[kniteowl]

I find it extremely strange that they'd nerf Expansive and not Organized, Organized never really needed cheap Factories in the first place. (lol i Have triple 7 post count)

 

[scy12]

I hope you (civfanatics) do another questionnaire and ask specifically who did it and why.

 

[bode404]

I find it extremely strange that they'd nerf Expansive and not Organized, Organized never really needed cheap Factories in the first place. (lol i Have triple 7 post count)

Factories??
If you mean Courthouses, then I disagree, because the 50% cheaper civic maintenance takes some time to make difference in your economy.
Anyway, I dont think Expansive needed to be nerfed, as its 50% bonus to worker wont apply to food...

 

[DrewBledsoe]

More off topic thought:-

The comment on The Rio Christ statue is quite valid. But anyone else think its a huge white elephant anyways? Once you're at Radio, you've probably got the Civics you want in the majority of games, and will stick with them.

Ok there is the option I suppose of switching to Theology and Vassalge with no anarchy if you're atacked, but do you really need to at that time of the game? And on the same point, why if you shock attack an ai, does it feel it has to switch to vass and Theo...? You've shock attacked, it obviously hasn't got an adequate defence, so lets have 3 or more turns where it can't build anything at all, nor hurry, draft or whip. Smart move

 

[homan1983]

I find it extremely strange that they'd nerf Expansive and not Organized, Organized never really needed cheap Factories in the first place. (lol i Have triple 7 post count)

Yeah because we all know having -50% civic cost alone was so much better than Financial +1 commerce to ~100-200 tiles BEFORE improvements AMIRITE?

After bank/mark/grocer it would be worth 200-400 GPT... let alone the fact that it makes cottage on sea and rivers extremely profitable.

 

[kniteowl]

Factories??
If you mean Courthouses, then I disagree, because the 50% cheaper civic maintenance takes some time to make difference in your economy.

The half cost factories come with the Warlords 2.08 patch

Yes the 50% takes time before it's bonus is quite significant, that's why you have two cheap useful early buildings (lighthouse & Courthouse).

Yeah because we all know having -50% civic cost alone was so much better than Financial +1 commerce to ~100-200 tiles BEFORE improvements AMIRITE?

After bank/mark/grocer it would be worth 200-400 GPT... let alone the fact that it makes cottage on sea and rivers extremely profitable.

You're comparing Organized with Financial... now that's just a bit unfair, financial is considered one of the most powerful traits in the game. You have to leverage Organized differently it's not just spamming cottages left and right.

You're also making the assumption that the Organized leader will play a Cottage Economy, Obviously you save more money if you're playing the Specialist economy because most SE cities have a higher population then CE cities.

 

[Thedrin]

DrewBledsoe:
The comment on The Rio Christ statue is quite valid. But anyone else think its a huge white elephant anyways? Once you're at Radio, you've probably got the Civics you want in the majority of games, and will stick with them.

I tend to think that the comment on 'the nerf on spiritual' are invalid for precisely the reason you gave.

WindBourne:
Now other people can get their special ability via a wonder? And what do THEY get for that wonder? It says they can build it twice as fast. Is this just to prevent someone else from stealing their fire? Rush out the useless wonder themselves?

What they - spiritual civs is what I presume you mean - get is the ability to change civics as often as they like. The Cristo Redentor removes the 5 turn period after changing civics during which a civ cannot change civics.

 

[bonafide11]

What they - spiritual civs is what I presume you mean - get is the ability to change civics as often as they like. The Cristo Redentor removes the 5 turn period after changing civics during which a civ cannot change civics.

Exactly. In the thread about The Cristo Redentor, when it was first announced, I was upset that they'd include a wonder that would not provide a particular trait with any ability. I suggested that they let the Wonder allow Spiritual civs change Civics whenever. Next information I saw on the wonder stated that the hosting Civilization can change Civics without the 5 turn wait. I'd like to think Firaxis took my advice, but I'm sure they thought of it long before I proposed it... Either way, I like the idea of the Wonder now because it still provides Spiritual with an ability. I would dislike the idea of a Wonder that offered absolutely no benefit to the hosting Civilization, but fortunately this is not the case...

 

[Spitefire]

I wonder if thay are keenly observant of the fact that Expansive is a situational power boost so that if you dont start in the middle of a forest or have hills without jungle on top of them the worker production boost gets kinda weak, so if you get a little bad luck on a start and say start right in the middle of a huge jungle (I have had that happen many times with and without that trait) then it really has no effect on worker production for some time, thus almost completly nullifying any usefulness the worker production boost should have.

 

[homan1983]

The half cost factories come with the Warlords 2.08 patch

Yes the 50% takes time before it's bonus is quite significant, that's why you have two cheap useful early buildings (lighthouse & Courthouse).



You're comparing Organized with Financial... now that's just a bit unfair, financial is considered one of the most powerful traits in the game. You have to leverage Organized differently it's not just spamming cottages left and right.

You're also making the assumption that the Organized leader will play a Cottage Economy, Obviously you save more money if you're playing the Specialist economy because most SE cities have a higher population then CE cities.

In my opinion, most traits are pretty well balanced at the moment.

The half price factory really isn't that big a deal in terms of addition to the Organized trait. By the time factories come around, it really won't be game-changing as such.
And before the addition of cut price facts. Organized was pretty crappy to be fair [the exception was playing on extremely high difficulties].

I would say that at the mom. Organized, Spiritual, Financial, Expansionist, Industrious , Charismatic are pretty close together followed closely by Creative , Aggressive and Protective(protective will be boosted to top tier when the expansion allows drill upgrade on gunpowder units). Then at the bottom is Imperialist.

I was quite disappointed that they gave Cyrus Imperialist tbh since he was one of my favourite leaders.

 

[Pikkis]

I hope they raise the +2 to +3 health after doing that.

If the health isn't increased, they could add a couple double-speed buildings to its abilities, I would suggest Aqueduct and Hospital, though double-speed Hammams would maybe make Mehmed II too powerful in early game.

homan1983: In what group do you place Philosophical? I think it's one of the best traits.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I wonder if thay are keenly observant of the fact that Expansive is a situational power boost so that if you dont start in the middle of a forest or have hills without jungle on top of them the worker production boost gets kinda weak, so if you get a little bad luck on a start and say start right in the middle of a huge jungle (I have had that happen many times with and without that trait) then it really has no effect on worker production for some time, thus almost completly nullifying any usefulness the worker production boost should have.

That's why I believe + hope that the food for producing Workers and Settlers gets the same bonuses the Hammers do

Because that would boost both Expansive and Imperialistic, and they might have decided it boosted Expansive too much, hence dropping from +50% (of hammers) to +25% (of Hammers and Food)

 

[homan1983]

If the health isn't increased, they could add a couple double-speed buildings to its abilities, I would suggest Aqueduct and Hospital, though double-speed Hammams would maybe make Mehmed II too powerful in early game.

homan1983: In what group do you place Philosophical? I think it's one of the best traits.

Oh sorry I forgot about philosophical. I would certainly agree with you that philo is one of the top tier traits. I used to love this trait when I first got Civ4, mainly because it boosted one of the new features of civ4.

The problem with philo is that it needs special resources to operate: you can't use this with normal farms. The danger here is that if you don't get any/many decent resources, then this trait becomes effectively null(or at the least very weak).

This isn't that case for traits like financial, organized, industrious - cottages are just as effective in a city with food resources as it is in city with no resources just plotting villages over the place.

Its akin to having a unique unit like praet. and not having any access to iron.

I'd like to know which tier you would place it...

 

[bonafide11]

You do not need any special resources to utilize the Philosophical trait. In fact, you don't need a single resource at all. Just build one Wonder and you're already making use of it.

 

[homan1983]

True
(10 chars)

 

[civzombie]

It might not actually be that much of a nerf. If they changed it so that you get 25% bonus to worker production, but the bonus now applies to extra hammers AND extra food, expansive may possibly be able to build workers even faster than before.*

* this excludes building workers soley by tree chops, which will be slower. Some players switch dynamically switch between works and other items to mostly avoid the growth penalty of building a worker.

 

[Antilogic]

It might not actually be that much of a nerf. If they changed it so that you get 25% bonus to worker production, but the bonus now applies to extra hammers AND extra food, expansive may possibly be able to build workers even faster than before...

I'm crossing my fingers: I hope this is true here.

 

[homan1983]

If thats the case then perhaps this will also apply to Imperialistic as well, giving it somewhat of a boost.