Explanation for the Current Financial Crisis

general_kill

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This documentary does a really great job explaining what exactly happened that triggered the financial crisis last year. I've been looking for something to walk me through exactly what went wrong and this documentary takes us through it step by step. Truly amazing:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay...RiHSbfPEY2siALT5fj8Cg&q=cr edit+crunch&hl=en

I'd really like to think of what conservatives think of this and the free market.
 
Good share. Thanks.
 
LOL. Nice propaganda movie, and broadcast on BBC4 too! It must surely be of the highest quality! There was a much better program on Channel 4 called "The Ascent of Money", with a more balanced view, and this one was actually presented by a professor of economic and financial history.
 
LOL. Nice propaganda movie, and broadcast on BBC4 too! It must surely be of the highest quality! There was a much better program on Channel 4 called "The Ascent of Money", with a more balanced view, and this one was actually presented by a professor of economic and financial history.

What kind of factual errors did you see within the documentary? There is a bias against the super rich in the beginning and end but the majority of the content only describes the chain effect that led to our financial collapse.
 
I don't have time to watch the whole thing, but being as it's written by Robert Peston, I can guess what it's saying, and I'd probably agree with it.

However, I don't see the financial crisis as a substantive criticism of the free market, nor conservativism. There are better reasons to criticise those things than a financial crisis. In other words, the problems with the financial system are entirely separate from and different to the problems with the free market or conservativism.
 
Mise said:
However, I don't see the financial crisis as a substantive criticism of the free market, nor conservativism. There are better reasons to criticise those things than a financial crisis. In other words, the problems with the financial system are entirely separate from and different to the problems with the free market or conservativism.

I bow to you sir.

Impressions:

2 seconds in I already want to throttle him courtesy of his voice.
1.48 minutes in I still want to throttle him for the same reason as above.
2.30-3.00 minute mark or thereabouts the Times Rich List guy makes a few astute observations and then goes on an envy binge - congestion charge and private jet -.
3.12 minutes in... voice... grating on ears!
3.26 minutes in... more envy '50 million pounds' and '26 bedroom mansion and 1 million pounds to run it!' okay I will admit 'jewel encrusted gold taps' are just that little bit to much.
4.58 minutes in... general point about 'conjuring money'.
5.50 minutes... mentions Greenspan and low interests rates.
7.00 minutes in they pull in a former fund manager and offer a fairly balanced account... till he hit on leverage

... stopped at this point I was about to rip my ears out :p

EDIT: It isn't a 100% balanced, but its not a bad documentary. Its on BBC so go figure which side its batting on.
 
LOL. Nice propaganda movie, and broadcast on BBC4 too! It must surely be of the highest quality! There was a much better program on Channel 4 called "The Ascent of Money", with a more balanced view, and this one was actually presented by a professor of economic and financial history.

A notoriously right-wing, unabashedly imperialist one at that
 
I bow to you sir.

Impressions:

2 seconds in I already want to throttle him courtesy of his voice.
This made me want to watch it.

I lasted twenty seconds. I don't know how he pulls it off, but he manages to emphasize about every noun and most verbs.

"Fortunes have been accumulated on a scaaale not seen for a hundred years. Weee've beeeen toooold (he got all of those) that the waaay the superrich create this wealth makes all of us, well a bit better off, but does it?"

"X!!!!"
 
I must say, I feel slightly offended by the responses so far, save augurey's. I won't claim the documentary is flawless, and its content is clearly up for debate--in fact, I encourage it. The information (I'm talking about the hard facts, not the moral lecture) needs to be scrutinized.

However, I feel like you guys have not even given it a chance. This is fine and dandy if all of you understand the predicaments precipitating the financial meltdown last September, but many of you debating the issue in other threads obviously lack a basic understand of the situation. In fact, the congressional hearing this week was filled with clueless politicians asking the most inane questions which exposes their ignorance of the current problem.

This is perhaps a reflection of our current witch hunt to find scape goats to blame our problems on. We no longer care to inform ourselves but instead, we just want to see blood. This documentary has been criticized as liberal garbage yet I gravitated toward the conservative side after watching this.

For example, the "obscene" bonuses that bankers were paid in previous years wasnot the exclusive result of greed per se. It has more to do with how the free market operated. When hedge fund managers operating under the 2-20 rule started making hundreds of millions of dollars through their investments, the hedge fund industry attracted would-be bankers away from the banking industry. To prevent the best and brightest from being bought away, banks had to start paying comparable bonuses. However, with a low federal interest rate and a booming equity market, savings dropped. Without savings the banks could not fulfill their duties and their earnings became capped. Therefore, they had to find new ways to earn enough commission fees to pay their bankers bonuses. This led to greater risk taking and the now infamous derivatives which led to the financial collapse last year. And what caused the hedge funds to earn so much money in the first place? Answer: an influx of capital from dominant exporting countries such as Saudi Arabia, China, and India. The influx of capital gave the hedge funds the capital as well as the ability to leverage large sums of money to earn the kind of returns they did. So at the end of the day, who is really at fault? Everything leads back to globalization. No single evil mastermind orchestrated the financial mess. It all played into the free market.

What I described is only scratching the surface, but we as responsible intellectuals must stay informed in order to properly correct the problem. Capping executive pay and other demagoguery gestures will not address the root of the problem. We have to rethink globalization as well as the world of finance. This is why I inquired conservatives to share their opinion on this matter. Given the chain of events that have unfolded, can we truly allow the free market to operate the way it has for the past few years. If we do not regulate the market, should we still bail out the banks? Bailing out the banks should not be dismissed lightly because they perform extremely crucial services in our society. They are the lubricant that keeps our economy running.

However, any regulations we do decide to impose will almost certainly fail or create new problems because of how complex a system the regulation will affect. The financial collapse was not exclusive to the financial world. It was directly linked to global trade. It was the trade surpluses of Eastern nations that generated the kind of capital that triggered all the chain reaction. However, our tax policies, our interest rate manipulation also contributed to their trade surplus.

I hope you guys see that there is a lot to talk about other than the guy's voice or the producers at BBC. I joke about Fox News and even call them propaganda at times but when they bring up legitimate concerns, I will take the time to consider them. For example, their opposition of the stimulus package really does have merits and I agree with many of their proposed changes.
 
I must say, I feel slightly offended by the responses so far, save augurey's. I won't claim the documentary is flawless, and its content is clearly up for debate--in fact, I encourage it. The information (I'm talking about the hard facts, not the moral lecture) needs to be scrutinized.

However, I feel like you guys have not even given it a chance. This is fine and dandy if all of you understand the predicaments precipitating the financial meltdown last September, but many of you debating the issue in other threads obviously lack a basic understand of the situation. In fact, the congressional hearing this week was filled with clueless politicians asking the most inane questions which exposes their ignorance of the current problem.

This is perhaps a reflection of our current witch hunt to find scape goats to blame our problems on. We no longer care to inform ourselves but instead, we just want to see blood. This documentary has been criticized as liberal garbage yet I gravitated toward the conservative side after watching this.

For example, the "obscene" bonuses that bankers were paid in previous years wasnot the exclusive result of greed per se. It has more to do with how the free market operated. When hedge fund managers operating under the 2-20 rule started making hundreds of millions of dollars through their investments, the hedge fund industry attracted would-be bankers away from the banking industry. To prevent the best and brightest from being bought away, banks had to start paying comparable bonuses. However, with a low federal interest rate and a booming equity market, savings dropped. Without savings the banks could not fulfill their duties and their earnings became capped. Therefore, they had to find new ways to earn enough commission fees to pay their bankers bonuses. This led to greater risk taking and the now infamous derivatives which led to the financial collapse last year. And what caused the hedge funds to earn so much money in the first place? Answer: an influx of capital from dominant exporting countries such as Saudi Arabia, China, and India. The influx of capital gave the hedge funds the capital as well as the ability to leverage large sums of money to earn the kind of returns they did. So at the end of the day, who is really at fault? Everything leads back to globalization. No single evil mastermind orchestrated the financial mess. It all played into the free market.

What I described is only scratching the surface, but we as responsible intellectuals must stay informed in order to properly correct the problem. Capping executive pay and other demagoguery gestures will not address the root of the problem. We have to rethink globalization as well as the world of finance. This is why I inquired conservatives to share their opinion on this matter. Given the chain of events that have unfolded, can we truly allow the free market to operate the way it has for the past few years. If we do not regulate the market, should we still bail out the banks? Bailing out the banks should not be dismissed lightly because they perform extremely crucial services in our society. They are the lubricant that keeps our economy running.

I don't understand how you can gravitate towards the conservatives while saying all that. I mean, if you accept that what the neo-liberals has been shouting about has all gone wrong, why would you believe them now? And what can they tell you except either that they don't know or the same things they've been saying all along without abandoning their worldview?

general_kill said:
However, any regulations we do decide to impose will almost certainly fail or create new problems because of how complex a system the regulation will affect. The financial collapse was not exclusive to the financial world. It was directly linked to global trade. It was the trade surpluses of Eastern nations that generated the kind of capital that triggered all the chain reaction. However, our tax policies, our interest rate manipulation also contributed to their trade surplus.

"It's too complex to handle, we give up!" This excuse is all too common. So if we do nothing, we're screwed. If we do something, we might be screwed too. But which offers us the more hope?

Certainly, we shouldn't want to listen to the neo-liberals again. But somehow I think they'll still see the light of day.
 
I don't understand how you can gravitate towards the conservatives while saying all that.

Are you.. really confused? Or am I not picking up some kind of sarcasm. Here, think about it this way:

Osama Bin Laden changing his stance on killing Amerians to only injurying Americans = him gravitating toward moderation. Is he still an extremist/fanatic? Yep, but do you see how "gravitating" is relative?

"It's too complex to handle, we give up!" This excuse is all too common. So if we do nothing, we're screwed. If we do something, we might be screwed too. But which offers us the more hope?

Certainly, we shouldn't want to listen to the neo-liberals again. But somehow I think they'll still see the light of day.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.
 
This is perhaps a reflection of our current witch hunt to find scape goats to blame our problems on. We no longer care to inform ourselves but instead, we just want to see blood. This documentary has been criticized as liberal garbage yet I gravitated toward the conservative side after watching this.

I agree. To further on this, you might want to read the following by Thomas Sowell:

link: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100308.php3

Fact Number One: It was liberal Democrats, led by Senator Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, who for years— including the present year— denied that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were taking big risks that could lead to a financial crisis.


It was Senator Dodd, Congressman Frank and other liberal Democrats who for years refused requests from the Bush administration to set up an agency to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.


It was liberal Democrats, again led by Dodd and Frank, who for years pushed for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go even further in promoting subprime mortgage loans, which are at the heart of today's financial crisis.


Alan Greenspan warned them four years ago. So did the Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to the President. So did Bush's Secretary of the Treasury, five years ago.


Yet, today, what are we hearing? That it was the Bush administration "right-wing ideology" of "de-regulation" that set the stage for the financial crisis. Do facts matter?


We also hear that it is the free market that is to blame. But the facts show that it was the government that pressured financial institutions in general to lend to subprime borrowers, with such things as the Community Reinvestment Act and, later, threats of legal action by then Attorney General Janet Reno if the feds did not like the statistics on who was getting loans and who wasn't.


Is that the free market? Or do facts not matter?

Do facts still matter? That is a pressing question.
Most are ignorant of the facts yet they have the audacity to judge.
The few who know about the facts choose to ignore them to find scapegoats for political scoring.
 
For example, the "obscene" bonuses that bankers were paid in previous years wasnot the exclusive result of greed per se. It has more to do with how the free market operated. When hedge fund managers operating under the 2-20 rule started making hundreds of millions of dollars through their investments, the hedge fund industry attracted would-be bankers away from the banking industry. To prevent the best and brightest from being bought away, banks had to start paying comparable bonuses.

So you want me to believe that the banks managed to get bankrupt while being run by "the best and brightest"?

Isn't it more reasonable to say that the free market rules created an environment where opportunists and idiots got to run the show and pay themselves billions?

It wasn't "cheap money" that put those people in control of banks - or hedge funds. It was throwing away all rules, oversight and requirements for responsibility. It was allowing those speculative schemes in the first place. Obvious Ponzi schemes, banned or limited after the last world economic depression, but human memory does not extend more than a few decades, it would seem...
Hedge funds? Stock market speculation? When will people understand that this adds nothing real to an economy? Favors no one but the opportunists who happen to be lucky with their timing. Stock markets are just that - markets. Their single use is to provide "easy liquidity", an easy way to trade ownership on capital investments. They they got turned into a veritable casino: options, futures, short sales, CDS, ... Why? Because foolish economists claimed that markets could work perfectly, if only we had markets for everything, everywhere, for the present and the future. That was what turned stock markets (inherently unstable) into a casino.

Economists screwed up. And so did bankers. Because bankers, even more than economists, were paid to care for the banking system, to protect all their customers - the first and foremost duty of a banker is to protect the assets he is trusted with, not to announce larger profits each quarter. That was not their duty, it was their personal greed at work.

However, with a low federal interest rate and a booming equity market, savings dropped. Without savings the banks could not fulfill their duties and their earnings became capped.

Ah, they myth of perpetual growth... show better profits every quarter, and reap ever-increasing pay. But it wasn't their duty to lend what they did not had. It wasn't their duty to "repackage" mortgages. It wasn't their duty to make loans which they knew could not be repaid. Bankers pissed on their duty, pissed on the people they lend money to, and pissed on the people they sold their "packaged products to". All for the sake of profiting more personally.
Those bankers are not scapegoats, they are clearly one of the guilty parts here.

Everything leads back to globalization. No single evil mastermind orchestrated the financial mess. It all played into the free market.
[...] We have to rethink globalization as well as the world of finance. This is why I inquired conservatives to share their opinion on this matter. Given the chain of events that have unfolded, can we truly allow the free market to operate the way it has for the past few years. If we do not regulate the market, should we still bail out the banks? Bailing out the banks should not be dismissed lightly because they perform extremely crucial services in our society. They are the lubricant that keeps our economy running.

Bankers are arguably so important that they cannot be allowed to continue in the hands of those bankers. But while banking is important, it can take many shapes. The "huge private global bank", "too big to fail" model has clearly failed...

However, any regulations we do decide to impose will almost certainly fail or create new problems because of how complex a system the regulation will affect. The financial collapse was not exclusive to the financial world. It was directly linked to global trade. It was the trade surpluses of Eastern nations that generated the kind of capital that triggered all the chain reaction. However, our tax policies, our interest rate manipulation also contributed to their trade surplus.

Almost certainly fail? No. If a system is too complex and cannot be prevented from crashing, dismantle it and build a less complex one. Both finance and trade require regulations. Regulations can only be effective (or rather, can only be carefully crafted to bring about positive outcomes) if they are created for reasonably homogeneous regions. Which is fortunate, because states, the only power capable (and with some kind of democratic legitimacy - often questionable) of imposing regulations are also regional.
So yes, "globalization" - the idea of having the same economic rules and regulations for all the world, of imposing some kind of "bevenolent :rolleyes: consensus" on the world - belongs in the dustbin of history.
 
Therefore, they had to find new ways to earn enough commission fees to pay their bankers bonuses.


This sentence assumes that paying bankers exorbitant bonuses is
the be all and end all, the paramount requirement for banking.

It is not, the banks could just have told their employees there is no
endless pot of money and they should live within their means.

Which is the way it is with every other type of business.
 
Are you.. really confused? Or am I not picking up some kind of sarcasm. Here, think about it this way:

Osama Bin Laden changing his stance on killing Amerians to only injurying Americans = him gravitating toward moderation. Is he still an extremist/fanatic? Yep, but do you see how "gravitating" is relative?

You haven't answered why. Relative or not, why would you gravitate towards the conservatives at all, who have been a crucial party to this mess? Because you believe them when they say that it's just the market doing its stuff and not caused by human error? Right :rolleyes:

general_kill said:
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Just some comments about how absurd it is to say that we can't do anything to change anything because it might be bad too.
 
Do facts still matter?
If those are your idea of facts, no. At least I certainly hope not.

As for the subject at hand, I only watched the first mind-numbing 10 minutes of it. Yeah, rich people suck because they are rich and obviously greedy. I got it already.

But it did highlight the primary reason why we are in this crisis. Alan Greenspan screwed the global ecconomy by lowering interest rates to an absurdly low level to falsely prop up the economy after 9/11. Combined with GWB's unwillingness to regulate the mortgage industry the neocons intentionally deregulated during the Reagan years provided the rest of the impetus.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=whats_behind_the_subprime_disaster

But thanks to a lobbying blitz early in the anti-government Reagan era, Congress liberated S&Ls to speculate in far-flung ventures with no connection to their core mission of providing mortgages. Tiny S&Ls were allowed to become multi–billion-dollar behemoths almost overnight by offering premium interest rates on savings deposits. They then had to find riskier uses of the money to cover their higher costs. A lot of these loans went bad. Loan defaults and S&L bankruptcies ultimately cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars.

The sub-prime lending crisis of the current decade closely repeats that pattern. In 1977, the investment-banking firm Salomon Brothers devised a highly lucrative financial device known as "securitization" of mortgage credit. Mortgages could be purchased from the originator of the loan, repackaged as bonds, sorted according to supposed risk, and certified by bond-rating agencies, thus allowing any number of investors to buy the bonds. Each player along the way took a cut, raising costs to borrowers.

Securitization enabled sub-prime lenders to throw away the rulebook. As long as some investment bank could be found to buy the loan, convert it to a bond, and peddle it to someone else, the mortgage companies could still turn a profit.

The union of securitized mortgage credit and sub-prime lending was a marriage made in hell, waiting to be consummated. Most of today's biggest mortgage companies are not federally regulated. Some are actually subsidiaries of banks, such as Wells Fargo, or own banks, such as Countrywide, the nation's biggest mortgage company. But while the loan portfolios of the parent banks are still strictly regulated, their mortgage affiliates are not, because the loans don't stay on their books. Still other such companies are independent but financed by big banks.

Many of these new-wave mortgage lenders, which make their profits based on their volume of loans, loosened credit standards far beyond the point of prudence, knowing that they could pass off the risk to some other investor. Between 2001 and 2005, the value of sub-prime loans soared from $50 billion to more than $600 billion, according to The Wall Street Journal. Mortgage companies offered loans with no down-payments and low "teaser" rates that became unaffordable once they rose to the market rate. About 15 percent of these loans, with a total value of about $67 billion, are already in default. But most of the loans with adjustable rates are only now just starting to "reset," portending much worse to come.

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. Karl Marx
 
So those accusations are lies? I'm curious.

Yes. Freddie and Fannie did not cause the housing bubble, despite their flaws. After growing in the 90s, the two GSEs became ever more insignificant as the bubble grew. By the height of the bubble, they were marginal small players, especially in the non-prime business. The Community Reinvestment Act could not have caused the bubble either, because it wasn't either expansive enough (many of the biggest subprime lenders weren't banks, and thus weren't covered by cra) nor did it have that sort of effect. The CRA banks took less risks.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
This made me want to watch it.

I lasted twenty seconds. I don't know how he pulls it off, but he manages to emphasize about every noun and most verbs.

"Fortunes have been accumulated on a scaaale not seen for a hundred years. Weee've beeeen toooold (he got all of those) that the waaay the superrich create this wealth makes all of us, well a bit better off, but does it?"

"X!!!!"

Quite terrible.

I actually managed to get through most of it before I hit the sack. It honestly wasn't all that bad, it didn't line up some sacrificial bankers and economists and metaphorically stand them up against a wall and put a bullet in their heads... it was actually not to bad.
 
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