Extra/Conditional Unique Units

[The Turk]

I am not that into more units. We already have plenty.

The idea is not bad and it would create a better mod. However I think the limited resources we have are better spent on more crucial game mechanics.

But Ezzlar, you have to agree that the mercanary system is a mess, right? I mean Minoan Chariot mercanries being given to the French

The mercanary system does need to be overhauled, and to many it is an important game mechanic, which should be changed sooner or later

 

[Opera]

It doesn't need an overhaul, it merely needs to be "flavoured" so you don't get Minoans in French territory, etc.

And again, sometimes simple convenience beats flavour (re: province UUs).

 

[AbsintheRed]

It doesn't need an overhaul, it merely needs to be "flavoured" so you don't get Minoans in French territory, etc.

And again, sometimes simple convenience beats flavour (re: province UUs).

Unfortunately that's not true
The mercenary code has a -lot- of bugs in it :/

Flavouring will only be the last step of the improvements...

 

[Morholt]

Unfortunately that's not true
The mercenary code has a -lot- of bugs in it :/

Flavouring will only be the last step of the improvements...

Could you name some of the bugs? I could look into implementing a conditional mercenary system for RFC:E, since it seems people think it is a good idea. Do you have any ideas for what would make the mercenary system better?

 

[Opera]

@AbsintheRed: that doesn't mean it needs an "overhaul".

 

[AbsintheRed]

@AbsintheRed: that doesn't mean it needs an "overhaul".

Agreed on that
It was a poor wording from the Turk

 

[AbsintheRed]

Could you name some of the bugs? I could look into implementing a conditional mercenary system for RFC:E, since it seems people think it is a good idea. Do you have any ideas for what would make the mercenary system better?

Yeah, I may need help in this
But none of the mercenary improvements will be in Beta 12, so we should get back on this later

 

[Opera]

If I may, I think a big difference in mercenary use between SoI and RFCE is that it can be complicated in SoI to churn out enough units due to a somewhat low production overall. I find it very easier to play by using mercenaries (actually in both mods) than to just rely on my cities' production.

That said, maybe mercenaries make less sense in RFCE? I don't know how much they were used during that time.

 

[AbsintheRed]

That said, maybe mercenaries make less sense in RFCE? I don't know how much they were used during that time.

Yes, in my opinion they were used less. The difference was rather big compared to the Middle East.
That's why I said that conditional UUs do have a place in this mod
So if we have time for it, we may include those too

Conditional mercenaries will be in sooner though, but before that we have to clean up the mercenary mechanics like embryodead did in SoI

 

[Morholt]

Mercenaries were used extremely much by Western European armies. During the 17th century they made up almost all of the national armies. Eastern european armies were less reliant on mercenaries thanks to systems such as pospolite ruszanie and streltsy, but there were still mercenary-like institutions such as the registered cossacks of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the western-style "regiments of the new type" of Petrine Russia.

 

[The Turk]

That said, maybe mercenaries make less sense in RFCE? I don't know how much they were used during that time.

Are you kidding me?? Up into Nationalism and levee en masse with French Revolutionary ideals, mercenaries were an integral part of any European Kingdom. Mercenaries were so wide spread, that you even had areas specializing in different mercenary types. Overall mercenaries were very important, and the current mercenary system is broken, so yes, a total RECALL [just wanted to say that], is in order. Anyway Caliom seems to be on to something....

 

[Opera]

How is the current system "broken"? Please provide arguments with your statements, The Turk....

 

[The Turk]

How is the current system "broken"? Please provide arguments with your statements, The Turk....

French - Minoan Chariots. Period

lol, and also (I mean I never use mercenaries because of that), I've heard that there have been numerous bugs with the system. Also the lack of specialized unit art turns me off, or perhaps I'm just spoiled from playing SoI with mercs....

 

[Opera]

Naming, art and you "heard" there are bugs.

So in the end, nothing's broken, you just are obsessed with little details.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Naming, art and you "heard" there are bugs.

So in the end, nothing's broken, you just are obsessed with little details.

I'm also annoyed by the style of The Turk in many cases, but actually he is right on the bugs...
3Miro didn't really touch the original mercenary code of RFC, so all the bugs remained from there
I had a couple PMs about this with embryodead too

So, the bugs and incompleteness in the mercenary system (the ones I know of):

• The mercenary gold bug which can cause unrealistic amount of gold in a few specific cases
• Gold calculation bug of the Carthagian (Genoan) UP - this may be related to the previous one
• Another small bugs in the code which enables negative gold, thus "free" mercenaries
• Clicking on the mercenary button (on the main interface) causes CTD for many people
• The mercenary screen UI has some small issues as well
• There's also a bug in RFC/RFCE that creates mercenaries with 0 level, or with -1 XP sometimes
• Contracting units out is very unrealistic. Why would the ruler get money, after some mercenaries left to serve someone else?
• Also, the income you get from the current contracting out mechanics isn't balanced at all.
• The "price" of mercenaries is more or less based on the number of promotions they have, rather than the actual stregth of the unit (in RFC/RFCE a spearman with 5 promotions is much more expensive than a knight with no promotions)
• Mercenary naming is also screwed up currently, at least if you want to use regional names. And it won't work the province system the way it is now

I plan to start working on (some of) these things after the release of Beta 12

 

[Morholt]

How about:
- Removing the contracting out feature altogether. I can't remember the last time I used it, and it's really just unneeded complexity.
- Reworking the way they get promotions. How about every mercenary is added to the pool with 0 experience and then gain experience at a fixed rate as long as they stay unhired.
- Basing the price on the production cost of the unit, with experience playing a smaller part.
- Change names from "regional": "saxon", "minoan", etc to "mercenary company" ones: "Roger's", "Steel-gloves", "Dove Company", "Great Company", etc.
- Making mercenaries way more common. Mid-game there are almost never any for hire. There is currently a restriction that mercenaries should not be more than 10% of the total units. How about removing this restriction completely and instead add more mercenaries whenever there are less than say 10 unhired ones and remove mercenaries whenever there are more.
- And finally implement regional mercenaries. They should probably not count toward the maximum unhired mercenaries since not everyone can hire them.

 

[The Turk]

How about:
- Removing the contracting out feature altogether. I can't remember the last time I used it, and it's really just unneeded complexity.
- Reworking the way they get promotions. How about every mercenary is added to the pool with 0 experience and then gain experience at a fixed rate as long as they stay unhired.
- Basing the price on the production cost of the unit, with experience playing a smaller part.
- Change names from "regional": "saxon", "minoan", etc to "mercenary company" ones: "Roger's", "Steel-gloves", "Dove Company", "Great Company", etc.
- Making mercenaries way more common. Mid-game there are almost never any for hire. There is currently a restriction that mercenaries should not be more than 10% of the total units. How about removing this restriction completely and instead add more mercenaries whenever there are less than say 10 unhired ones and remove mercenaries whenever there are more.
- And finally implement regional mercenaries. They should probably not count toward the maximum unhired mercenaries since not everyone can hire them.

I slightly disagree with Morholt, if anything a good example to learn from would be how Embryodead setup the mercenary system for SoI. All units should be regional. Therefore you cannot hire camel riders in Norway or whatever, you would only be able to hire region specific (or specific to a number of regions) mercenary units.

Also having the names of companies would not work, as that was not the case from England to Russia and from Norseland to Arabia, you would end up having weird irregulatries. I suggest having them all named after ethnic or regional titles for example, you could have Swiss Pikeman, Highlanders, Berber Cavalry, Don Cossacks etc. Basically I would delete all the current mercenary units, and start from scratch, with unit specific art (so that Berber cavalry don't look like Germanic huns), and have Varangian Guards using specific artwork for them (SoI uses a nice Varangian Guard artwork).

The mercanary system is an intergral part of the game, so I hope you guys are able to reform it!

 

[Morholt]

The reason I proposed company names for the mercenaries is that currently every mercenary must have a unique name, ie there cannot be two "archer".

Having all units be regional is certainly an idea, what do other people think? The regions could be very large of course, for example crossbowmen might be hired everywhere but Africa? What I worry about is that when adding mercenaries randomly to the pool, some regions might get none just by random chance. I want everyone to be able to hire some mercenaries.

Also, currently all mercenaries appear in your capital. What if:
-When hiring mercenaries for your capital you can choose from regional mercenaries all over your empire.
-But there is also a drop down box in the mercenary screen. You can select any of your cities and hire mercenaries from that region that will appear in that city. This means you can raise regional mercenaries in place to supplement far away campaigns (such as Turcopoles in the Holy Land).

 

[Caliom]

Anyway Caliom seems to be on to something....

I have to dissapoint you . I can't do anything on my ownright now that involves the dll . In about 2-3 month i may have time for that. Until then i can only contribute with sugestions.

 

[The Turk]

The reason I proposed company names for the mercenaries is that currently every mercenary must have a unique name, ie there cannot be two "archer".

So instead you'll have different ethnicities of archers, for example Breton Horseman vs. Magyar Horseman. The difference being that you can only hire the Breton Horseman in Northern France and the Magyar Horseman in Hungary.

Having all units be regional is certainly an idea, what do other people think? The regions could be very large of course, for example crossbowmen might be hired everywhere but Africa? What I worry about is that when adding mercenaries randomly to the pool, some regions might get none just by random chance. I want everyone to be able to hire some mercenaries.

No no no, you almost got the concept but not quite. I would strongly suggest you play one game of SoI, and see how Embryodead setup the Company and Mercenary system, you'll be impressed.
Basically you would have different ethnicities of Crossbowmen, where historically accurate. So would you have a Scottish Camel Rider? Of course not, since Scots never rode camels etc.

Also, currently all mercenaries appear in your capital. What if:
-When hiring mercenaries for your capital you can choose from regional mercenaries all over your empire.
-But there is also a drop down box in the mercenary screen. You can select any of your cities and hire mercenaries from that region that will appear in that city. This means you can raise regional mercenaries in place to supplement far away campaigns (such as Turcopoles in the Holy Land).

That would be really great, BUT, it would be hard to code I believe. Let them come up with the new mercenary system, AND THEN, we can talk about add on's like that. But thats actually a really great idea!

I have to dissapoint you . I can't do anything on my ownright now that involves the dll . In about 2-3 month i may have time for that. Until then i can only contribute with sugestions.

lol, its ok you don't need to do anything, just contribute suggestions. The RFCE team said they would do it themselves later.