Extradition Request for Convicted Rapist Roman Polanski Denied

[Silurian]

From Green Left

Luis Posada Carriles, a Venezuelan-born CIA operative, who is wanted in both Venezuela and Cuba for the bombing of a 1976 commercial Cuban airliner that killed 73 people on board.

Posada was arrested in Venezuela in 1976 where he was imprisoned until 1985, when he escaped.

Posada is currently living in Miami. Venezuela has requested the extradition of Posada on numerous occasions, but and the US refuses to do so.

US refuses extradition

 

[FriendlyFire]

From Green Left
US refuses extradition

Freedom Fighter.

 

[Snorrius]

Freedom Fighter.

Lol. Probably Polanski was too back then. Sexual Freedom Fighter.

 

[Masada]

Team CFC should go into France abduct the bastard and drag him to a country that doesn't condone child rape and will deport him. I suggest Britain which we can then conspire to have it annexed to the United States to save it from Europe.

Lol. Probably Polanski was too back then. Sexual Freedom Fighter.

Liberating all the under-age bourgeois virgins.

 

[Winner]

And it's America's decision to extradite any criminals wanted in Switzerland. Or cooperate with the Swiss government on any matters relating to international crime. I suppose you won't be upset if the US exercises that right?

They haven't been terribly helpful so far! Their archaic banking laws make it extremely difficult for them to actually provide any tangible assistance.

Since we don't have an extradition treaty with France, we're already not under any obligation to extradite anyone to France. I don't know about Germany; if we have an extradition treaty with them and they refuse to arrest and extradite Polanski, then I'd support widening the ban to them as well. (If we don't have an extradition treaty, then that's fine, we can't blame them for not upholding their side of a treaty if that treaty doesn't exist)

This just proves how unworkable your "propositions" are. The reality is clear - the US badly needs Europe's cooperation in security matters. Without it, it's ability to track down terrorists would be severely hampered. In fact, the US needs Europe's cooperation much more than vice versa.

If any US administration decided to throw it all out of the window because of one Roman Polanski, they'd ought to be put on trial for high treason.

Last I checked, this was a "Should a child rapist be sent home to be sentenced" case, not a "which political/economic block should we try and curry favor with" case.

Then check again.

I honestly don't think it's relevant at all whether the victim wants to pursue the case anymore. He's flaunted American court decisions

Which seems to bother the Americans more than the alleged crime itself, so please, stop with that "I am so morally outraged" farce, nobody's buying it.

and American law and refuses to even apologize for committing a serious crime.

Afaik he not only apologized many times over, he also paid a lot of money to the alleged victim.

For that alone, the case should be pursued to the fullest extent we legally can -- to show that just because you're rich and famous and the French think you're cool, doesn't mean you're above the law.

Well said, now apply that on America - just because you're rich and powerful and you think you're #1, it doesn't mean everybody has to dance to your tune. Especially if a court of yours screwed up and you're taking it out on one guy.

BTW, someone raised the question of when will the US extradite the CIA agents sentenced in Italy for kidnapping an Italian citizen. That was a pretty good point...

In America, we take raping 13 year old girls pretty seriously. I guess it may be hard to understand for someone who doesn't seem to give a crap about human rights, but for civilized peoples, it's pretty easy.

Actually, using strawman arguments, personal attacks and feigning moral outrage all the time reminds me of a certain bunch of Middle Eastern countries which I personally would have trouble calling "civilized". You don't hold the moral high ground, so stop patronizing me.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't know why you are insisting that Elrohir isn't bothered by the actual crime . . .

 

[Elrohir]

That's exactly what the swiss justice told the US Really, I'm not saying that switzerland without doubt acted correctly. It's quite possible that they made a mistake her. What bothered me in this discussion here was that several posters didn't even take into account that the mess up could have happened on the US side. Once again, if they wanted Polanski so badly, why didn't they comply with the swiss request? Cooperation often brings you further than flat out demands..

Because what they were requesting were confidential documents, and not relevant to the essential facts of the case. It may have been wiser to share the documents, but I don't think the US was under any obligation to do so in order to fairly expect Polanski's extradition.

I totally agree with you on this one. Though it wasn't just Winner who seems to have this opinion. Mobboss seems to think that too.

Well, Mobby thinks the Swiss did it to curry favor with the French, and therefore they suck. Winner thinks they did it to curry favor with the French and to stick it to the US, therefore they are awesome. So still fairly different.

From Green Left


US refuses extradition

I hardly think refusing to extradite a member of your chief intelligence services to a country hostile to your nation's leadership is the same as refusing to extradite an unrepentant child rapist. One is an intrinsically political matter, the second is not.

This just proves how unworkable your "propositions" are. The reality is clear - the US badly needs Europe's cooperation in security matters. Without it, it's ability to track down terrorists would be severely hampered. In fact, the US needs Europe's cooperation much more than vice versa.

If any US administration decided to throw it all out of the window because of one Roman Polanski, they'd ought to be put on trial for high treason.

Then why does the idea bother you so much, if we're the only ones that would be hurt?

And lol at the treason thing.

Which seems to bother the Americans more than the alleged crime itself, so please, stop with that "I am so morally outraged" farce, nobody's buying it.

Do you have a problem with me being outraged that someone flaunted our laws? I'm outraged that he's gotten away with both raping a child, and flaunting our laws. I don't see any contradiction with being angry over both. I would think any sane and reasonable citizen would be.

Afaik he not only apologized many times over, he also paid a lot of money to the alleged victim.

Actually, as far as I can tell, he's never publicly apologized for raping her. Also, while she won a large civil settlement, as far as I can tell, he never actually paid her that. If you can find proof of either, that'd be nice. (I don't think it matters, but then I could update my rants about how big a piece of scum he is to better reflect reality)

Well said, now apply that on America - just because you're rich and powerful and you think you're #1, it doesn't mean everybody has to dance to your tune. Especially if a court of yours screwed up and you're taking it out on one guy.

I don't see how expecting a child rapist to be sent home for sentencing is making "everybody dance to our tune." It sounds like asking other countries to dance to the tune of human rights and basic justice. I guess that may be difficult, though.

BTW, someone raised the question of when will the US extradite the CIA agents sentenced in Italy for kidnapping an Italian citizen. That was a pretty good point...

If it were Italy refusing to extradite Polanski until the US showed similar cooperation, that'd be one thing. (Although I think the cases are very different, I wouldn't exactly be outraged by the Italian government taking that position) But I hardly think the Swiss can justify not extraditing someone to the US because the US hasn't extradited people to some other country not involved in the case at hand.

Actually, using strawman arguments, personal attacks and feigning moral outrage all the time reminds me of a certain bunch of Middle Eastern countries which I personally would have trouble calling "civilized". You don't hold the moral high ground, so stop patronizing me.

You're one of the most condescending posters on the board, so I think it's amusing that you flip out so readily when you get the tiniest taste of it back at you. I probably should be more polite (Sorry Eran!) but honestly, I do think we have the high ground here. I don't see how you could possibly be on an even footing, much less higher ground, when you're defending a child rapist's right to flee punishment. If you really really see that as more civilized than punishing him appropriately -- well, I think you have bigger issues than some dude on a message board acting patronizingly.

 

[Grisu]

Because what they were requesting were confidential documents, and not relevant to the essential facts of the case. It may have been wiser to share the documents, but I don't think the US was under any obligation to do so in order to fairly expect Polanski's extradition.

Maybe. But I don't know...the question whether he already has sat his time seems relevant to me. In the end it does look that what I said earlier is true: it was probably a joint mess up

Well, Mobby thinks the Swiss did it to curry favor with the French, and therefore they suck. Winner thinks they did it to curry favor with the French and to stick it to the US, therefore they are awesome. So still fairly different.

they're the same in the sense that both are wrong

I hardly think refusing to extradite a member of your chief intelligence services to a country hostile to your nation's leadership is the same as refusing to extradite an unrepentant child rapist. One is an intrinsically political matter, the second is not.

ex-CIA or not, I do believe that harboring a known terrorist is quite a bit worse...

If it were Italy refusing to extradite Polanski until the US showed similar cooperation, that'd be one thing. (Although I think the cases are very different, I wouldn't exactly be outraged by the Italian government taking that position) But I hardly think the Swiss can justify not extraditing someone to the US because the US hasn't extradited people to some other country not involved in the case at hand.

I don't think the point was that had some legal impact into the swiss extradition procedure or that it justifies the actions of the swiss justice department, rather than that it renders the US outrage about the refusal somewhat hypocritical.

 

[Elrohir]

Maybe. But I don't know...the question whether he already has sat his time seems relevant to me. In the end it does look that what I said earlier is true: it was probably a joint mess up

But the answer to that question can't be found in those documents. It cannot be determined whether or not he has served out his entire sentence until he is sentenced. Which is why the authorities wanted him back in the US to begin with.

ex-CIA or not, I do believe that harboring a known terrorist is quite a bit worse...

They aren't "harboring" him. They're charging him with a crime, and he's been in and out of prison, but refusing to extradite him because they (rather reasonably) believe that he'll be tortured if he's sent back. That's not at all comparable to the Swiss letting Polanski live in a chalet, and leave the country freely, because they don't want to make their neighbors mad. The cases really are not that similar.

I mean, wasn't everyone mad when we deported suspected terrorists to Syria, and they were tortured? Why is it outrageous behavior if we might benefit, but morally obligatory if we would not? I think it's a bad idea either way, but I don't see how sending someone off to be tortured is the same as sending someone off to receive a fair sentence.

I don't think the point was that had some legal impact into the swiss extradition procedure or that it justifies the actions of the swiss justice department, rather than that it renders the US outrage about the refusal somewhat hypocritical.

I don't think so, since the cases really aren't comparable. (And even if they were, the "Well, you do it too!" argument doesn't make the Swiss come out any better, just the US worse.)

 

[MobBoss]

Which seems to bother the Americans more than the alleged crime itself, so please, stop with that "I am so morally outraged" farce, nobody's buying it.

Well, you dont speak for everyone though do you? I buy his moral outrage, and I am sure most people (by their opinions in this thread) probably do to.

Afaik he not only apologized many times over, he also paid a lot of money to the alleged victim.

You maybe in error with this statement. Polanski lost a civil case awarding his victim damages......but court records show he didnt pay it. If you scan the other threads in regards to this issue, this was indeed mentioned in them and in the press prior to this.

Well said, now apply that on America - just because you're rich and powerful and you think you're #1, it doesn't mean everybody has to dance to your tune. Especially if a court of yours screwed up and you're taking it out on one guy.

Except this isnt 'taking it out on one guy'...we extradite people all the time from all over the world. Polanski is just the most famous one.

BTW, someone raised the question of when will the US extradite the CIA agents sentenced in Italy for kidnapping an Italian citizen. That was a pretty good point...

Was extradition requested?

Actually, using strawman arguments, personal attacks and feigning moral outrage all the time reminds me of a certain bunch of Middle Eastern countries which I personally would have trouble calling "civilized". You don't hold the moral high ground, so stop patronizing me.

Yeah, in this case, we pretty much do have the moral highground. Unless one wants to defend the act of drugging and raping a 13 year old girl, that is.

 

[Silurian]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9378925#post9378925
Elrohir

From MWC News

Posada Carriles is the accused terrorist who is charged with the terrorist bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed 73 innocent people, including 24 members of Cuba’s national fencing team. For several years, he has been freely walking the streets of Miami because the U.S. government steadfastly refuses to grant an extradition request from Venezuela, which has jurisdiction over the bombing of the airliner.

Did U.S. officials at least indict Posada Carriles for the terrorist bombing of the Cuban airliner? After all, just recently U.S. officials charged two New Jersey men with conspiracy to “kill, maim and kidnap persons outside the United States.”

No, there’s been no indictment for Posada Carriles charging him with the terrorist bombing of that Cuban airliner. And there’s been no extradition of Posada Carriles to Venezuela. Instead, U.S. officials charged him with immigration fraud for supposedly lying to U.S. immigration officials when he entered the United States in 2004.

So why does the US not charge him for terrorism.

 

[Grisu]

They aren't "harboring" him. They're charging him with a crime, ...

IIRC they're charging him with lieing to immigration officials or something like that. That's just laughable considering the real crimes he's being accused of...

hat's not at all comparable to the Swiss letting Polanski live in a chalet, and leave the country freely, because they don't want to make their neighbors mad.

once again, the releasing of Polanski had nothing to do with that. There's absolutely no indications that this is why it happened.

I don't think so, since the cases really aren't comparable. (And even if they were, the "Well, you do it too!" argument doesn't make the Swiss come out any better, just the US worse.)

Which was my point What Switzerland did was maybe a mistake (though it certainly is less of a mistake than not touching him a all like germany, who seems to get no flak at all..), but the holier than though moral outrage of some of the americans on this board is just ridiculous in light of the other cases.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I think a lot of the outrage isn't aimed at Switzerland, as much as at Polanski's defenders here.

 

[Samson]

Wait, what? How many crimes do you know of that are far more serious then drugging and raping a 13 yr old girl? Drugging, raping and killing a 13 yr old girl is about the only one that really tops that one.

It is a difficult one. How can one really say one evil act is worst than another evil act? I was thinking of the IRA men who have hidden from UK justice for years in new york and boston, and have been implicated in terrorist attacks in the UK. There is at least a case that killing someone, however much less sweet than a 13 year old girl, is worse than not killing a 13 year old girl.

They are both nasty, should both be locked up, but will not be because of political reasons. It is sad.

 

[MobBoss]

So why does the US not charge him for terrorism.

Do we have an extradition treaty with Venezuela?

 

[Grisu]

I think a lot of the outrage isn't aimed at Switzerland, as much as at Polanski's defenders here.

plural?

 

[illram]

edit: nevermind

 

[Silurian]

Do we have an extradition treaty with Venezuela?

Why do you need an extradition treaty with Venezuela

 

[MobBoss]

Why do you need an extradition treaty with Venezuela

Because thats how it works. If we dont have a treaty with them, we dont really have to consider their requests, and vice versa. If we made a extradition request for say, a leader of the FARC, whom Chavez has been known to support, do you think he would honor said request and give the guy up?

Hardly.

 

[Quackers]

Why do people support Polanski? Just some continental Europeans giving the fingers up to USA. I doubt they even care a 13 year old girl was raped.