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[ExtraModMod] Free up the Social Order civic from the Order religion

Discussion in 'More Naval AI Modmod' started by Jojo_Fr, May 24, 2015.

  1. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Prince

    Mar 17, 2013

    - This suggestion is for ExtraModMod not for More Naval AI. I prefered to open a new thread because it's clearer than to all put in the same thread !

    - I think my proposition will be rejected. But anyway I really would like to see it implanted in the next version, just to see what it does to the game, if the players find it good or bad. :)

    Free up the civic which give +1 happiness bonus per unit in a city to others civilizations

    - I think it would be interesting to change the big picture of civics, by giving the Social Order units per city bonus to another civic than Social Order. What is Social Order : Link.

    - Why do I want to do this ? Because this is a strong and interesting civic, which open access to strategies which did not exist now because the Order players which use Social Order are rares. These strategies would mainly by that : being able to bulding a military force pumped in your cities, without facing a growing unhapiness problem of growth limit problem, by the fact you cannot build happiness buildings when you are buldings units.

    Situation where there is not Social Order available

    - Why do I want that ? Because in multiplayer, here is the main situation what we tend to face at a point of the game : player A is close to player B. Player A is building a large military force. As response, player B is building a military force too. So, as the military force of each player are growing again and again, they are only doing units, they science and developpement are quikly diminushing, as the units upkeep is growing.

    - At result, you are forced to prepare a war and seing your science output diminishing, which is normal. But during this phase of war preparation, the player C, far from them, was not threated, and he continued to build some buildings and teching. Without facing the growth limitation of player A and B, because he had time for building and did not need to mass slave.

    In medium or long term, player C will largely profit of these units making, because the two players will have a low science and will not growth in population. In multiplayer it can come very often.

    - So, as a result, we got this global problem : making units is a necessity in the game, but it's bad to keep growing your economy. And, making building is a necessity for keep growing your economy, but you need units especially if you see your rival growing in power score.

    - So, my aim is to limit these eternal phases of Buildings only vs Units only. What I want it's permiting more growting of the economy in the military preparation phase, but no in the war, because in the war units are moving from cities, so the happiness will be hurted. My idea it's ony to maintain a better growing output (by more happiness) during the military construction, not during a war. Do you see what I mean ?

    Situation where there is Social Order available

    - In this situation, each units builded and stationned in a city, gives +1 happiness. So you can continue to grow your population in this situation. Players have an interest to build units because they can sligly increase their happiness in their city and making several units which can be usefull for barbarians or to prevent an attack. There is less rupture between making buildings and making units, due to these happiness bonus, units count as "buildings for happiness".

    - The player C have less advantage over the player A and B.

    - The economy founded more and food to produce, than hammer, can more easily whip units for the war. It's good because slavery tend to do very hard to use when you build units, which make that everyplayer even the aristofarm players, tend to always use conquest (very overpowered civic in my opinion) and not slavery, in the military building phase.

    The disavantages of the Social Order / Monarchy civic

    - The player can too easily building warriors or scout wich cost very hammers, to increase his happiness (it's now possible with Social Order for Order players, which is too powerful). To prevent this abuse of the +1 happiness bonus per unit, there is no easy way but I propose three solutions for this :

    - Only one warrior/scout per city can give a military presence per city, but not one happiness bonus, not more (possible to code ?). Best elegant solution.

    - Warriors and scouts are no more buildable when you discover bronze working or hunting (but it means that axemen can be built without bronze access or other metal). It's a problem for the calabim because they can feed themself on their special warrior units. Can be changed if now they feed on moroï (with more heal).

    - Warriors and scouts cannot give military presence to a city. Others military units can (more expansive, so cannot be easily exploited with the Social Order civic). It means the players will need to aim for hunting, bronze or archers fast to give happiness (why not, it's not hard to grab these techs).

    In which civic would be this new available civic ?

    - In all governement civic : not Despotisme but City States, God King, Aristocracy, Theocracy and Republic N except the Tyrannie (too primitive governement). Why all civics ?! Because I think it should be in Governements civics not outisde, but the problem it's if we put this social order bonus to only one governement, he will be too strong.

    Theocraty and Republic are pretty mediocre. Theocraty is for the altar of luannatar strategy, that is all. And Republic give pretty mediocre bonus for a late tech (should be improved !). In late game City State is the best regim because maintenance is high, and the commercial road bonus is a must have... (should be changed, but that is another subjet).

    - Other possiblity (which I support because it would create a new alternative, very interesting the best I think) : creating a new regim called "Monarchy", "Military Order" or "Martial Law" or something. Accessible to any alignement (I don't want to nerf the Goods civs) with the technology Militarisation. It would give the Social Order unit's bonus, with a low upkeep (low because city state has low upkeep + mass reduction of maintenance, and it would be good to compet with it).

    What become the original Social Order civic ?

    - The original Social Order should give a stronger bonus than this, because a non slaver civ tend to be less productive than a slaver civ. Moreover, the Order units has not much powers.

    So I think the Social Order could give that : +1 happiness per city, +1 hapiness per tribunal, +50 % "special" city defense fortification (better defense organisation)halve the city maintenance cost and halve the unhapiness due to culture difference (I think it feat well with the idea of a very lawfull but good and fair autority, more accepted by conquered strangers than the Calabim culture for exemple ^^).

    What do you think of it ?
  2. akatosh

    akatosh Prince

    Dec 2, 2012
    I think this is an interesting idea. I've also thought about de-linking Social Order from the Order religion, but more for thematic reasons.

    Canonically, Order is supposed to be the religion of the Bannor, but mechanically Order is one of the worst religions for them. The main thing that Order provides is gobs of extra happiness, through Basilicas or Social Order. Bannor, being a civ whose unique mechanics synergize with cottages, need extra happiness a lot less than other civs because (all else equal) they want to sprawl horizontally to maximize the # of cottages in the empire, rather than growing vertically and maximizing per city population using farms. They need the extra happiness less than almost any other civ.

    Moreover, IIRC Social Order is in the same civic category as their unique civic anyway. I'd tweak the synergy by moving Social Order somewhere else or having it do something else or remove it from Order religion. To improve the Bannor/Order synergy, I'd give an option to upgrade Demagogs to Crusaders so you can keep your most experienced Demagogs after a Crusade is over, or alternately, give Bannor cottages a chance to spawn Crusaders rather than Demagogs if the state religion is order and you're under the Crusade civic.

    I mean, wouldn't it make sense to use Crusaders during a Crusade?

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