[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
@scutarii: what do you mean exactly?




@Terkhen: another point on Adaptive, if you think it's too good now you could bring the interval before switches back to normal. both MNAI and Extra make the switching more common, but I'm not sure it's an improvement... for example on Quick the first switch used to be on turn 70, now it's on turn 63 which is a bit odd.



I think this note https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/83/paramanders-and-soldiers-of-kilmorph should be edited to:

" Soldiers of Kilmorph can use Bronze and Iron weapons, and lose dwarven race." ( Paramanders unedited )

since they are axemen replacement they should get the same metals. imho metal weapons should scale with unit tier, bronze warriors -> iron axes/drown/soldiers -> mithril champions/crusader/paramander. so axemen and other t2 should not get mithril weapons. I think the only exception to consider would be pyre zombies since the Sheaim melee line ends there.




what do you think about changing goblin archers on forts to strong scorpion goblins? the problem is: lairs are not supposed to spawn very close to players, but that code isn't perfect yet so they still do. you can get 3 of those 6 strength archers around you and they're a big pita to deal with. strong scorpion goblins would be more reasonable, same as lizardmen at 4 strength. after the code that handles lairs gets improved archers could come back, but right now imho they're more annoying than challenging since they just kind of sit there :D




could the background of the shrimp resource icon be black like all the others? it stands out since it's the only one like that.
 

Qgqqqqq

Emperor
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
1,134
[to_xp]Gekko;12683859 said:
wait, so what was the reason for that change? I must be missing something...

What change?

It seems to me that it would be better to have them with no unitcombat as all other summons do. That way you can't empower them with buff spells. I don't like to include multiple versions of the same unit as it leads to confusion when making changes and loads of merge problems. It also makes it appear twice in the civilopedia.

Don't all summons have a unitcombat so they can take promotions after victory (as a summoner, or for the ones which hang around)?
 

scutarii

King
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
747
My idea to buff defensive trait: build archer line 50% cheaper. Archers are very situational, so no big deal , even for good elves.
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
@Qgqqqqq: "the separation of favored and potency" change.

not all summons have a unitcombat, elementals don't ( ice elementals used to be melee, but Tholal changed them to be like all other elementals )

what do you think about the hammer cost of soldiers and drowns, isn't it too high at 90 with eitb cheap axes? iirc fawns got cheaper to be competitive with hunters ( same as wood golems with axes ) , the same could apply to these ( radiant guards are also 90 hammers and are a damn lot more powerful due to sun2 for example )


@scutarii: that's way too powerful. Terkhen already said he likes having defensive as a minor trait. if you wanted to buff it to regular levels you could merge it with BTS protective I guess.
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
should prophecy of ragnarok be at corruption of spirit like in Eitb?

also, Eitb v9 has Chalid at Honor without pillar of fire, and v10 will give him his pillar of fire once Righteousness is researched ( and also to Order high priests ) . this seems best, currently in Extra he's at righteousness which is too late imho.

I noticed my unit who had the sylvien lyre had two separate action buttons to drop it into a city.
 

Qgqqqqq

Emperor
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
1,134
Sorry, despite what the changelog states, Favored has a max of 20xp (the normal FFH limit) while the Potency was upgraded to 30xp.
However, the Malakim have still not been nerfed, simply ARC has been buffed.
 

Aline

Cat
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
465
While we are discussing traits.
Aint Sage a little bit to strong, +20%:science: AND +25% GP, thats like a realy nice bonus plus 1/4 Phil.
Also cheaper libraries are huge and makes getting the Great Library a lot more likely. :s
Bonus points for Furia who is also financial, giving her +20/25% on pretty much her entire ecconomy.^^
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
is it intended for the Temple of Temporance wonder to benefit from Spiritual trait ( build at double speed ) ?

Varn is willing to gift me his 3 giants, he's at friendly but that seems a bit excessive since they're unique :D
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
another idea for Blinding Light: what if a unit could only be targeted by it one time per turn max? meaning if a unit resists the first enemy attempt it's safe for that turn. that would allow sun2 casters to still be effective while making sure they're support units that you don't want to spam for annoying shenanigans.

for Bannor, what about moving crusade to the membership category? it fits with the no diplomacy theme and makes them able to use social order. they don't really benefit much from republic while crusading anyway :/

also, what about giving Liberty civic the "causes anger in other civs" tag? the overcouncil resolution enforcing it would make a lot more sense then, and currently the "no civic anger" tag on the Pillar of Chains is meaningless.

I'd recommend removing the cheap monuments from creative, it should be good enough without that. if you decide to keep it, it should also apply to Elohim Reliquaries.

spread factor of FoL and RoK could be reduced to 75 like OO ( down from 100 ) , currently they tend to spread fast and too many civs stick with it throughout the game.

do Elves REALLY need alchemy labs? they were added in Eitb to give them access to Mary Morbus, but other civs without access to alchemy labs didn't get that luxury and elves got buffed in Eitb.

a couple upcoming eitb v10 changes to consider are no channeling 3 for druids ( so they don't double up as high priests ) and geasts of agares requiring a demon's altar instead of the veil temple.
 

Terkhen

King
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
916
Location
Granada
[to_xp]Gekko;12684309 said:
re: mistforms. there's no real issue with the barbarian version having marskman imo, and I think you can avoid having the clone show up in the pedia with the graphical only tag iirc. No unitcombat seems wrong if you want to keep it as a single unit, since then the barbarian ones would be unable to gain levels. a single unit with Recon unitcombat, animal AI and marksman promo seems fine :)

I'll do it as a single unit with recon.

[to_xp]Gekko;12684309 said:
re: multiple production, it's included in the various major modmods and it's always been considered a change for the better. it's not hard to be able to produce 1 unit per turn, which makes very high hammer yields kinda wasteful unless you wanna build wonders. it also means the Kuriotates do not HAVE TO have the guild of the nine in order to be competitive for example. honestly, I think it just fixes an issue with base civ4 :D

Nice explanation, I agree with that. Nevertheless, it looks like a DLL modification and honestly I don't have as much time as I had to add complex stuff to the modmod. I'll include it if someone ports it to MNAI/ExtraModMod.

[to_xp]Gekko;12684309 said:
re: Kurios while I'm at it, you could consider having their number of cities scale better i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,6 instead of current 2,2,3,3,4,5 which makes them quite inferior on larger maps.

I prefer not to modify the Kuriotates until their OOS issue is fixed.


[to_xp]Gekko;12684309 said:
re: Cassiel, you can't make him PHI/IND again as that's already taken by Sandalphon now. If the problem is Koun being too weak, just buff him a bit with Defender for example. Adaptive is not as good as it used to be since financial is no longer OP ;)


[to_xp]Gekko;12685458 said:
@Terkhen: another point on Adaptive, if you think it's too good now you could bring the interval before switches back to normal. both MNAI and Extra make the switching more common, but I'm not sure it's an improvement... for example on Quick the first switch used to be on turn 70, now it's on turn 63 which is a bit odd.

I don't think that Adaptive is too good and I don't think that it should be nerfed. I think that it is good enough already to not require additional buffs in the form of giving Adaptive leaders optimal trait choices for their starts.

[to_xp]Gekko;12685458 said:
I think this note https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/83/paramanders-and-soldiers-of-kilmorph should be edited to:

" Soldiers of Kilmorph can use Bronze and Iron weapons, and lose dwarven race." ( Paramanders unedited )

since they are axemen replacement they should get the same metals. imho metal weapons should scale with unit tier, bronze warriors -> iron axes/drown/soldiers -> mithril champions/crusader/paramander. so axemen and other t2 should not get mithril weapons. I think the only exception to consider would be pyre zombies since the Sheaim melee line ends there.

I agree about the metals. Why should they lose dwarven race? IMO the Soldiers of Kilmorph should be dwarves, even if their current artwork does not reflect this. I think the same about Paramanders in vanilla without the art swap (I may be wrong about the lore but it makes a lot of sense to me to make Runes unique units dwarven)

[to_xp]Gekko;12685458 said:
what do you think about changing goblin archers on forts to strong scorpion goblins? the problem is: lairs are not supposed to spawn very close to players, but that code isn't perfect yet so they still do. you can get 3 of those 6 strength archers around you and they're a big pita to deal with. strong scorpion goblins would be more reasonable, same as lizardmen at 4 strength. after the code that handles lairs gets improved archers could come back, but right now imho they're more annoying than challenging since they just kind of sit there :D

IIRC we already discussed this, or maybe I commented in MNAI's bug thread about this. IMO they are fine the way they are.

[to_xp]Gekko;12685458 said:
could the background of the shrimp resource icon be black like all the others? it stands out since it's the only one like that.

I tried to do it (it seemed simple enough) but after editing the image it failed to display properly ingame. If anyone can do this change it will be quite welcome.

Don't all summons have a unitcombat so they can take promotions after victory (as a summoner, or for the ones which hang around)?

Elementals do not have an unitcombat. I'll give them Recon anyways, to prevent causing issues with barbarian mistforms.

[to_xp]Gekko;12687088 said:
what do you think about the hammer cost of soldiers and drowns, isn't it too high at 90 with eitb cheap axes? iirc fawns got cheaper to be competitive with hunters ( same as wood golems with axes ) , the same could apply to these ( radiant guards are also 90 hammers and are a damn lot more powerful due to sun2 for example )

I'll leave that finetuning for the EitB guys to decide.

[to_xp]Gekko;12689094 said:
should prophecy of ragnarok be at corruption of spirit like in Eitb?

Although the Prophecy of Ragnarok may be closely related to the Ashen Veil, IMO you should not be forced to research such an expensive, religion enabling technology just to build a wonder (in case that you want to build the Prophecy without following the Veil).

[to_xp]Gekko;12689094 said:
also, Eitb v9 has Chalid at Honor without pillar of fire, and v10 will give him his pillar of fire once Righteousness is researched ( and also to Order high priests ) . this seems best, currently in Extra he's at righteousness which is too late imho.

IMO making a unit available but blocking one of its main abilities until a different technology is researched is quite confusing.

[to_xp]Gekko;12689094 said:
I noticed my unit who had the sylvien lyre had two separate action buttons to drop it into a city.

One of them drops an item and the other creates a building in the city.

Sorry, despite what the changelog states, Favored has a max of 20xp (the normal FFH limit) while the Potency was upgraded to 30xp.
However, the Malakim have still not been nerfed, simply ARC has been buffed.

Both promotions have an identical iSpellCasterXP value in their XML definition (in fact, they are identical besides their name, artwork and affected unitcombat). Both of them should have a max of 30 XP.

While we are discussing traits.
Aint Sage a little bit to strong, +20%:science: AND +25% GP, thats like a realy nice bonus plus 1/4 Phil.

I thought the same when it was only +15% science before testing it ingame. The boost it gives is somewhat lacking and it is IMO still quite inferior to Financial, even in its current state. Try playing a Sage leader in at least Prince to see what I mean.

Also cheaper libraries are huge and makes getting the Great Library a lot more likely. :s
Bonus points for Furia who is also financial, giving her +20/25% on pretty much her entire ecconomy.^^

Science is more accesible and faster in this modmod, because of all other changes.

[to_xp]Gekko;12690169 said:
is it intended for the Temple of Temporance wonder to benefit from Spiritual trait ( build at double speed ) ?

It isn't, but I don't see that issue happening in ExtraModMod.

[to_xp]Gekko;12690169 said:
Varn is willing to gift me his 3 giants, he's at friendly but that seems a bit excessive since they're unique :D

It looks like an MNAI bug. Since they are somewhat unique units, the AI should value them more.

[to_xp]Gekko;12690918 said:
for Bannor, what about moving crusade to the membership category? it fits with the no diplomacy theme and makes them able to use social order. they don't really benefit much from republic while crusading anyway :/

also, what about giving Liberty civic the "causes anger in other civs" tag? the overcouncil resolution enforcing it would make a lot more sense then, and currently the "no civic anger" tag on the Pillar of Chains is meaningless.

Currently I don't plan to implement any of the changes I planned for civics as they are quite intrusive changes which I cannot playtest properly anymore. I also think that it feels weird to force the Bannor to leave the council to pursue a Crusade.

[to_xp]Gekko;12690918 said:
I'd recommend removing the cheap monuments from creative, it should be good enough without that. if you decide to keep it, it should also apply to Elohim Reliquaries.

Nicely spotted, I have created an issue to fix that

[to_xp]Gekko;12690918 said:
spread factor of FoL and RoK could be reduced to 75 like OO ( down from 100 ) , currently they tend to spread fast and too many civs stick with it throughout the game.

Aren't they meant to be the major religions?

[to_xp]Gekko;12690918 said:
do Elves REALLY need alchemy labs? they were added in Eitb to give them access to Mary Morbus, but other civs without access to alchemy labs didn't get that luxury and elves got buffed in Eitb.

Again I'll let the EitB discuss that and then follow their decision :)

[to_xp]Gekko;12690918 said:
a couple upcoming eitb v10 changes to consider are no channeling 3 for druids ( so they don't double up as high priests ) and geasts of agares requiring a demon's altar instead of the veil temple.

I'll leave those for a future merge. I don't want to make it even more complicated by trying to guess how unimplemented features will be implemented.

Thanks everyone for the feedback! :D
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
the problem with RoK / FoL spread rate is that currently AIs tend to stick with the first religion they get, and if the early religions spread too fast they won't take advantage of avalaible religious heroes or shrines, leaving them all for the player to collect. the behaviour is particularly noticeable in huge maps with lots of civs.

for soldiers of kilmorph, I just think it's weird to have a unit graphics disagreeing with its race. same as dwarven myconid really :)

for Chalid, what about having him at honor with no crown of brilliance? this scales better with techs since you alread get 4 crown of brilliance casters at theology. otherwise Empyrean is lame until lategame with sun2 nerfed.
 

Aline

Cat
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
465
So yeah...
Did test Sage, its realy good, probly better than you give it credit for, but probly not too good.

On another note.
Nox Noctis still bothers me, the invis you get from it is probly the best thing to come out of Essus and you do not even need to adopt the religion to get it.
Would changeing it, so that you acctualy need to adopt Essus as a religion in order to get the invis. bonus, be an option?
It would give people a reason to acctual adopt it and could cut out some of the shinanigans going on.(Had invisible cultists spamming tsunamis this game, if the AI figures out how to abuse this this might be a problem. :S)
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
I guess Aline's suggestion would be a good stopgap while Eitb nox noctis is still not implemented :)

for the Luchuirp worldspell, what about making the hammers settle as a unique specialist that gives 3 hammers, 3 science and 3 engineer gpp? basically a merge between an engineer and a great engineer. this essentially gives them one more hammer and 3 more beakers per city when they use it, so definitely not overpowered ( you could even make it give 5 hammer instead of 3 actually ) . this unique specialist should also benefit from the guild of hammers.
 

Terkhen

King
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
916
Location
Granada
[to_xp]Gekko;12691841 said:
the problem with RoK / FoL spread rate is that currently AIs tend to stick with the first religion they get, and if the early religions spread too fast they won't take advantage of avalaible religious heroes or shrines, leaving them all for the player to collect. the behaviour is particularly noticeable in huge maps with lots of civs.

Yes, that's what usually happens. I've always assumed that RoK and FoL are supposed to spread early and a lot.

[to_xp]Gekko;12691841 said:
for soldiers of kilmorph, I just think it's weird to have a unit graphics disagreeing with its race. same as dwarven myconid really :)

If they are supposed to be dwarven too (regardless of the artwork) we need better artwork for them, then ;)

[to_xp]Gekko;12691841 said:
for Chalid, what about having him at honor with no crown of brilliance? this scales better with techs since you alread get 4 crown of brilliance casters at theology. otherwise Empyrean is lame until lategame with sun2 nerfed.

That does not solve the problem of having a unit with abilities unlocked later in a confusing way.

So yeah...
Did test Sage, its realy good, probly better than you give it credit for, but probly not too good.

I think that it is a good trait, I just did not want to turn it into another Financial :)

On another note.
Nox Noctis still bothers me, the invis you get from it is probly the best thing to come out of Essus and you do not even need to adopt the religion to get it.
Would changeing it, so that you acctualy need to adopt Essus as a religion in order to get the invis. bonus, be an option?
It would give people a reason to acctual adopt it and could cut out some of the shinanigans going on.(Had invisible cultists spamming tsunamis this game, if the AI figures out how to abuse this this might be a problem. :S)

That sounds like a good idea. I have created an issue to remind me about changing Nox Noctis.

[to_xp]Gekko;12692911 said:
for the Luchuirp worldspell, what about making the hammers settle as a unique specialist that gives 3 hammers, 3 science and 3 engineer gpp? basically a merge between an engineer and a great engineer. this essentially gives them one more hammer and 3 more beakers per city when they use it, so definitely not overpowered ( you could even make it give 5 hammer instead of 3 actually ) . this unique specialist should also benefit from the guild of hammers.

Why does it need being changed?
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
I don't think that religious behaviour is intended, just a byproduct of the current AI. a bit more variety definitely wouldn't hurt ;)


there would be no abilities unlocked with tech with my latest Chalid proposal, just crown of brilliance removed and he gets moved to Honor. Empyrean loses most of its appeal otherwise. I agree he needed a nerf in vanilla but don't forget he's THE reason for going Empyrean and sun2 got nerfed already. Sareln noticed this, in fact he's at Honor for v10. or you could just put him back at religious law if you think Honor is too early.


for the Luchuirp worldspell, it's just a way to make it a bit more attractive after the nerf. since you can no longer stack hammers in the same city, the best course of action is now always to cast it asap for the gpp engineer point. this would make it a bit more powerful ( it went from very good to pretty lame ) and make the decision of when to cast it more interesting.
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
you could change Flauros to FIN/CRE like in Eitb, then he wouldn't share Cassiel's traits :)

I think Qgqqqqq is right about Favored and Potency: Favored is supposed to be 20 instead of 30. arcane units needed a buff, divine units didn't. they can gain xp in combat a lot easier.

Lightbringer could get freeXP tag so they get passive xp like disciples.

Could the religious founding techs give unique disciples with 100% chance of spreading it? otherwise you can find yourself unable to spread it further if you don't get the holy city and the first disciple fails.
 

Qgqqqqq

Emperor
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
1,134
Lightbringers have no need of free xp.
If you're not promoting them, why on earth are you building them?
 

Tasunke

Crazy Horse
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
the 1800s
Hmm, I had forgotten about Flauros being Phi/Org.

I agree with not always giving the best pick to the adaptive leaders first ....

but with Malakim I believe their usual early game weakness makes up for it, that and Cha is an odd thing to both have early on and lose early on. So I'd prefer Varn keep Spi/Cultural

With Cassiel though, Grigori will have probably one adventurer, so I think that is enough to say 'maybe not as much of an early game weakness.' Other than religion, the Grigori are quite good, and I'd consider religion more of a mid-game thing ... by the time the Grigori get their trait picks, or near enough anyways.

So for the Grigori I think I would consider giving them something mid tier.

Honestly Godking isn't even costing 2 gold without Organized by the time of the first trait swap ... so I see no point for starting with Organized. Does Industrious give a bonus to worker production?

Also, I believe that just because a trait cannot be 'selected' by adaptive leaders doesn't mean it can't be their FIRST temporary trait ... just that they inevitably lose it at the time of the first swap and can't get it back.

Obviously Cultural and Expansive are seemingly the best 'early game' civics .... maybe throw in Imperialistic and Aggressive as well. So we can rule those out for now.

If we want to throw out non selectors like Defender and Ingenuity then fine ... but I think either would make a great first pick.

That leaves Organized, Industrious, Financial, Charismatic, Raiders, etc

Fin or Cha might work
 

[to_xp]Gekko

QCT junkie
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
7,950
Location
Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
Reliquaries and Citizen forums are lacking the 50% faster with stone.

for Cassiel, another possibility would be to set him back to PHI/IND and have Sandalphon as PHI/CHA. then set Wane to require 26xp instead of lvl6. this way CHA would synergize well with the Sidar fetish for XP without making shades too easy to get.
 
Top Bottom