ExtraModMod

Discussion in 'More Naval AI Modmod' started by Terkhen, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Prince

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    Superbe. Thank you very much.

    I would like to know, what are the balance differences between your recent Extra Mod Mod and the recent Erebus on the Balance ?

    I looked in EITB up to date version and I saw some interesting changes, but I wonder : those changes are included in your EMM version, or not ?

    Link : http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=7646
     
  2. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    You can find all Erebus in the Balance changes included in ExtraModMod in the emm_changelog.txt file included with the download. 0.5.1 contains most of the changes in EitB v11. 0.6.0 will contain most of the changes in EitB v12.1 too (in fact I finished the merge yesterday and I will commit it to the development repository as soon as I finish testing them). Currently the changelog only displays the version of More Naval AI that each EMM version has, in the future I will list the included version of Erebus in the Balance too.
     
  3. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Prince

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    This is great. Thank you.
    I see no reason to play with EiTB if your mod bring all what he brings + the balanced change of EitB.
     
  4. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    The balance changes in Erebus in the Balance are extensively discussed and playtested in a mod that does not have all the extra stuff that my mod includes. All those extra EMM features are not balanced so thoroughly, and balance changes that are perfectly right in EitB may be unbalanced in EMM because of those extra features.

    Including these balance changes in ExtraModMod improves the balance situation in it a bit, but it is far from perfect. In fact as you probably remember from previous discussions in this thread about balance in ExtraModMod, I am not even bothering with balance (besides the EitB merges and fixing some obvious problems) because trying to balance a game while still adding huge features on each major release is in my opinion a waste of time. I would only move to finetune the balance in EMM once the mod is deemed as feature complete (if that ever happens :D).

    In summary, if you want to play balanced multiplayer games, your best bet is still EitB.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  5. JDexter

    JDexter Prince

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    Hey Terkhen, great mod! Re-infected with the FfH virus in my anticipation from the soon to be released Civ VI (I really hope people like you will - and can - start modding it right away) I used ExtraModMod for the first time and I have one big questionmark over my head.

    In my game as the Ljosalfar their ...good friend Acheron settled nearby. The rest of the continent is locked behind mountains and the path is threatened by the fireballs his disciple bodyguards throw around, so I wasn't able to expand into it. Once the Hippus, sitting on the other side, declared war on me because they are crybabies, I thought "Oh well, build some boats or get BBQed by Acheron & friends, you certainly will not reach my land in one piece.".
    A few turns later they started to invade, right through Acherons land, even using roads that he built - and not getting attacked at all!
    How does this work? I didn't enable random leaders, so Hippus cannot be Barbaric. Shouldn't everyone else always be at war with the Barbarians?

    Do you have an explanation for this? I really would like to force them to have the same problems invading me as the other way round...
    Cheers!
     
  6. CurseUppl

    CurseUppl The bureaucracy expands.

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    Great stuff, been playing it in multi and apart from the initial OOS upon load (where the player starts somewhere else, causing the OOS) it seems very stable, and the AI pretty challenging on monarch (with end of winter). End of winter helps the Doviello a lot and they become pretty big early, as well.

    The only thing, unless it's intentional, is that the AI is too happy to offer itself up as a vassal, creating a snowball effect where the player, or AI, has 6+ vassals.
     
  7. CurseUppl

    CurseUppl The bureaucracy expands.

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    Acheron doesn't attack, AFAIK. You can walk will-nilly through his lands if you want.
     
  8. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    Captain Uldanor has the Barbarian trait in ExtraModMod (and he may appear in normal games).
     
  9. JDexter

    JDexter Prince

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    Ah, okay, I didn't expect that and somehow never checked, because I "know" FfH well :D
    Thanks for the tip. Maybe I should take a much closer look at the actual changes...

    @CurseUppl: Acheron doesn't attack, but the Sons of Inferno (and whatever they are called at Disciple level) summon fireballs and throw them around. So you're fried by 3-8 fireballs. Every. Single. Turn.
     
  10. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    Thank you, I hope you like it! :)

    I will stay away from Civilization VI for now. I did not like much how V was on release (too incomplete) and although VI is looking far better I will probably wait until christmas to see what people think about it and then get it. About modding for VI, I have some major projects unrelated with Civ in my pipeline for when I finish adding new stuff to ExtraModMod (this is far away in the future as there is a lot of stuff to do yet, though) so I don't see myself starting yet another big project there. I could be convinced to collaborate with some project if it is cool enough, but who knows :p

    With regard to your question, what is happening is probably what lfgr said.

    I am glad that you are enjoying it. That OOS concerns me greatly, though. I never experienced it, and I ran like 10 separate multiplayer games before releasing 0.5.1. Do you know if there is something special in your games that may be missing from my tests? Maybe playing with a specific civilization, a certain game option, or even playing with a specific mapscript.

    Yeah, I agree with that, it seems to happen a lot... I will look into it in the future.
     
  11. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    I'd give to theology civic WW reduction - little exp and building bonuses can't compete vs maintenance reduction civics. And historically speaking, theological governments are warmongering ( either directly or at least at the philosphica level) and casualities are less relevant anyway. or make this civic as a good option for religious victory ( in addition to current bonuses): +1 happiness from state religion(+3 for state religion holy city), no riots from inquisition, state religion spreads faster.

    Caste system civic is much better than guilds. I'd give caste system bonuses to guilds and change caste system to - "castes" for Great persons - simulating castes from a real life - "higer level castes" are priests and merchants - better bonuses and lower level castes are "working castes" - engineers, sages and bards - no bonuses. or guilds definitely need commerce bonuses atleast .
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  12. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    For civic balance I am currently sticking to the changes in EitB. These are the civic related changes that are currently included in the development versions of 0.6.0:

    Why do you think that Theology needs a buff?

    I think that gameplay and balance reasons should be more important than realism for deciding civic mechanics. Also, "higher" and "lower" level castes would not be universal in the FFH world. I doubt that priests would be a high level caste in Grigori lands, while certain types of bards would be high level caste in a Balseraph city.
     
  13. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    Well, this civic is not suitable for bigger empires - no maintenace reduction and for "one ( up to four, five )- city-civilzations-and maps" God king is simply better ( kuriotates mostly). Theology is used marginally only by grigori - to get great prophets finally. For others - by this time AoL is more or less completed and there is no urgent need for great prophets. ww-reduction theology gives at the endgame a viable option for kurios (negates palace WW penalty), for instance.

    Republic is a good option for cottage economy and theology has therefore practically no use.




    Oh and please, give to foriegn trade civic enclave growth bonus too.

    AI and dungeons and exploration is the problem - eraly civs are wiped off after AI explores from nearby (great) dungeon werewolves. Heck, my game was over when AI explored two dungeons and bunch of warriors took my city. Maybe can't enter to barrows, ruins, etc below 4th level and uniques below 6th ? ( now rewards are better too for experienced explorers)

    Illians did get agressive trait from Letum frigus previously but not at this version, is it intended? I got golden age, the same as amurites ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
  14. ArkhanTheBlack

    ArkhanTheBlack Warlord

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    How nice that the mod is still developed. After a year of Civ abstinence the release of Civ6 motivated me to... try Civ5 for the first time, which made me aware that its tech tree is shockingly simplistic and the atmosphere a lot more goofy than the dark and gritty FFH2, which motivated me to... try Civ4 with FFH2 and ExtraModMod again. :rolleyes:

    So we had a MP session today on a small map with quick tech and 6 AI opponents and it was a real blast. Just on Prince though because we didn't play for a year. Tried the new Sheaim and after a rather calm start I was attacked by Sidar after a while which was okay, but then Clan of Ember stabbed me in the back when my forces were at the front and my cities almost unprotected. A rather nasty move - I would have done the same. ;) I was able to fend off the Sidar but I was still in a desperate defense of my empire against the Clan when we had to stop because time had run out. My friend was somewhat more successful than me with his Illians (priests of winter were real killers like usual), destroying the Amurites and keeping his other close opponents at bay. Well, in my defense, Clan of Ember were almost twice as strong as the rest of the field so they were definitely a force to be reckoned with.

    Good points:
    - Ai's were pushing for iron pretty hard
    - Moebius witches were great because rust counters iron and the pit beasts with summoner trait allows the witches to control several of them
    - Clan attack was pretty clever

    Not so good:
    - Barbarians seemed very passive at the start, so either there's a non-aggression phase where they don't attack cities, or all close lairs attacked AI opponents
    - Unfortunately we had one OOS in late game
     
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  15. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    I have a comment about game options (when creating a custom game). Those options have been rearranged and sorted under categories. That has its advantages because there are a lot of options currently, but it is a problem when switching between different mods because the game only remembers ordinal numbers of selected options. Because of that a mod with different order of options will have totally different options selected. Maybe it would be better to just leave all BTS game options in the default order and add new options at the end of the list. It's a minor annoyance, it's not really a problem, but maybe it would be good practice to have this kind of "compatibility" between mods. The same goes for victory conditions.
     
  16. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    well, this issue exists from the beginning of FFH. (it existed prior to the re-arrangement of game options in categories)

    so the standard procedure for switching mods had always been: "start a "new-game", play a turn, exit to main desktop, start a custom game.
     
  17. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    Theocracy gives unlimited priests, which is quite useful by itself and also helps greatly in winning the game by Altars. It also prevent non state religion spread, thus helping with religious victories. Both of these are unique to Theocracy.

    On top of that, it also grants extra happiness, extra xp and faster units and buildings. Maybe peace time is not Theocracy's strongest point but in my opinion it is fine as it is.

    I don't understand. Enclaves cannot become anything else, why do they need a growth bonus?

    I am against adding limits to the game just because the AI cannot deal with some features. In the future, once that BarbsPlus is more defined and finished, the AI can be improved to know when to explore better.

    This is intended. Getting Aggressive was too strong.

    Thanks, I hope you enjoyed it :D

    Yeah, Tholal's improvements to the AI make single player (or multiplayer with some AI) a lot more fun :)

    Yeah, balancing the barbarians is still a work in progress. I reckon that I will request more feedback to try to finetune them again when 0.6.0-beta1 is released.

    I really need more information about this; to my knowledge the only OOS in ExtraModMod 0.5.1 happens when a puppet state is created. Could that be the case?. If not, could I get a savegame from some turns before it happened?

    I thought that this compatibility was already broken even in FFH2, because some options were already in a different order and others mean different things. Also, doing this would make the category system useless because we would need to have a lot of game options right at the beginning. I think it is better to have options with a meaningful order in ExtraModMod than to try to keep a partial compatibility with other mods.

    I agree about victory conditions, though. I will fix them in 0.6.0.
     
  18. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    from town to enclaves - checked again - it gives bonus ;)
     
  19. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    If you mean the hidden options, in ExtraModMod you don't need to do that. They are set to their default values automatically thanks to this modcomp by platyping: http://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...sant-posh-python.497337/page-53#post-12947714

    Alright :)
     
  20. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    a minor issue : barseraph UB hall of mirrors still costs 180 hammers, but already nerfed. i'd reduce it to 100.
     

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