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Extremely early one archer rush.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Masagin, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    Axe vs Chariot isn't that bad. On the right terrain Chariots still suck against them and you don't need to defend a city against Chariots. Just keep it empty and park a guy or two next to it in a forest, and sweep any chariots that take it back. Sometimes it's even preferable for AIs to build Chariots instead of Archers with you having pure Axe.

    Having to tech Hunting without camp resources does indeed suck.
     
  2. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I just have to disagree. Even on Monarch (mediocre difficulty), the AI builds a fair amount of chariots once horses are hooked up.

    Chariot vs. hill axeman
    Chariot 4 + 100% vs axeman -25% (axeman on hill) + 10% combat 1 = 7.4
    Axeman 5 + 10% combat 1 = 5.5

    Seems pretty imbalanced.

    Chariot vs. hill/forest axeman outside city
    Chariot 4 + 100% vs axeman -75% (axeman on hill) + 10% combat 1 = 5.4
    Axeman 5 + 10% combat 1 = 5.5

    This is a little better. But consider the fact that Monarch+ AI starts with archers/archery. Therefore, if you leave the city undefended, usually you'll have to deal with 1 archer 1 chariot retaking the city and a possible chariot attacking your hill/forest fortified axeman. Now you have to expend even more axes to capture the city.

    All this to keep producing warriors that will get deleted in the future? Really? Not worth it to me. 5 turn Hunting is fine IMO. Everyone has their own style, though. And I'm certainly not a high-level player.
     
  3. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    Your combat calculations are false btw due to the way all attacker bonuses except Combat are subtracted from the defender. In reality it's even a bit more favorable towards the Chariot.

    It's pointless to go over a dozen hypothetical scenarios moving an Archer here or attacking an Axeman there. Bottom line is that the AI will not "mass" chariots and since it's dumb as a rock with regards to battle tactics situational benefits like Chariot vs Axe is pretty easy to work around (for example, the chariot will not attack the dude next to the empty city, he will very often capture the city instead and defend it if it's alone). Horse is also easy to pillage and once the Chariots are whittled down it's easy pickings (no Chariot will get more than 1 Axe outside a city due to no terrain bonuses, unlike frex Axe vs Impi or Spear vs Keshik).

    When rushing, every beaker counts double since the extra maintenance payload can seriously hamper the crawl to Pottery/Writing/(Alpha/Aes). Difficulty level is also a factor here, the lower free unit cap puts the hurt on quite early so you will want the minimum of sucky attack units possible in your army anyway.
     
  4. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    In a pinch, you could defend the city with a warrior or two. A non combat axe (or damaged warrior) will have 2.5 strength versus a chariot, a warrior will have 2*1.25=2.5 strength. So if your warrior has an additional bonus, it will be sure to defend (and probably die). Second, chariots don't get a bonus defending against axes.

    Though I would say when rushing, beakers are worth less than a really aggressive REX (less early city maintenance, unit maintenance kicks in after you've teched your worker techs and pottery, and you're compensated by pillage gold), if you're building a stack of 8+ units you'll definitely have hunting by then and can add a spearman.

    And finally, even if you're chariot rushing you still need bronze working to chop. And I still find it ironic how people think chariot rushes are very strong, yet prefer axes to a very fast impi/holkan rushes.
     
  5. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    EDIT:: UR right. I misunderestimated the chariot ;)

    Also, ur right about beakers in the early game. However, barring the camp resource (which would make Hunting a no-brainer), I still say beakers aren't wasted in going for hunting in this kind of scenario. I've lost countless axemen to AI chariot counter attacks when I didn't have AH yet and didn't know they had horses.

    I prefer to play it safe. Given that I play Monarch level, I'm able to allow for a little more leeway with the Hunting option.
    Nah.. I'm definitely not waiting until researching BW (pretty expensive that early on) and chopping to send out my chariots. If I'm rushing, it's for a reason (AI too close/Shaka/Monty/Toku) and I'm not going to tech 2 expensive techs (namely AH and BW) plus whatever prereqs I"m missing (wheel or Agri/hunting or mining). That's not really a Chariot rush anymore. Raw build and chop/whip the final 2. Of course, if I have to settle for the horse resource, BW will be in by the time it's hooked up anyway. AI doesn't build many spears (rarely see more than 2 or 3) so chariot rush is solid.
     
  6. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    I can't imagine immortal level chariot rush w/o bronze working. The AI will have min. 3 archers in the capital. Even if timed well, just when it expands it's still unbelievable to pull it off.

    I use spears on axe rushes but it's far from always. Also I rarely rush w/o stealing a worker 1st which helps more than having spears, anyways.
     
  7. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Well, if you have early access to horses (IE in the capital BFC, sometimes raw building chariots while researching BW and then finishing off your preparations with a chop/whip is enough to grab the enemy capital and destroy one of their expansion cities. A decent capital can push out 4-5 chariots while researching BW. Chop/whip to get 6-7 and off you go. Protective and hill enemy capitals are an exception. But as everything in this game, you shouldn't commit to something unless you have most of the variables discovered and figured in.

    Also, as commented above, I usually discuss Monarch level (which, I believe was the average in a poll taken earlier this year). I don't think I'd bother moving past Emperor as I play a little too relaxed to get a handle on Imm+. I'm too buzzed usually to be bothered with too many calculations
     
  8. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    You need at least 10 chariots vs 4 archers, and that's still on the low side. 3 to 1 is reliable, so 6-7 should beat 2 archers.
     
  9. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    It is quite doable a start with plains cows/hill sheep/plains phants/horses/forested plains hills in the BFC can let you blitz and smack an AI cap on turn 0 of the war. AIs often have 2 archers in their cap if you catch them at the right moment (a conveniently placed warrior on a hill can do wonders). Egypt with horses in the BFC can pull off an immort 4 chariot rush without BW.
     
  10. Infantry#14

    Infantry#14 Emperor

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    On noble, I won conquest w/ warrior rush on standard (either terra or pangea map.) No tech need, just set on making money on turn 1. Build tons of warriors and raze most cities. If encounter archers behind walls, expect 10 warrior for 1 archer.
     
  11. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    Immortal is where I started having more trouble with early attacks. There's a number of reasons for this, at emperor, rushing a PRO leader is doable, at imm it's hard. Same goes for capitals on hills, capitals with higher culture (either through religion on CRE), and AI starting with a strategic resource in their capital's BFC.
     
  12. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I've never seen 4 archers in 1 city when I rush. Again, I'm a monarch player, but I was under the impression that the AI usually prioritizes fast expansion. On my 2 immortal tries, I was able to rush Joao with 6 chariots, capture capital, and then grabbed 1 satellite city before reinforcements came. 3 is the MOST I've ever seen guarding the capital during this early AI expansion phase as they send out archer guards for their fast produced settlers and often utilize one of their free starting archers to explore.
     
  13. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    "On Monarch+ the only rushes that seem to work are either Immortals (Persia only), or Axes"

    there are a couple walkthroughs of an archer rush on monarch - standard- fractal
    all conditions, random all else

    Been done on emperor as well.

    You can pull it off- but not with just one- unless it is multiplayer and you have a ship- make alot of kills with archers this way.
     
  14. Masagin

    Masagin Chieftain

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    Seems the Incas are well suited for early rushes on Monarch, with +100% vs Archers on Quechua. Unless the leader is protective or on a hill or into building an army or outproducing you, this rush is very possible.

     
  15. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    On monarch/marathon one can take the continent w/ Inca's mighty warriors. Everybody knows AI totally blows vs them.
     
  16. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    God damn, that's the best part of this strategy!

    Thanks a LOT! I'm going to use this save & loading part to take my game up to the next level. Hope to see this thread placed into the strategy academy :p
     
  17. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    :lol::lol::lol:

    Your being a little rude arent you Obs ;)
     
  18. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Well, ethics back in my day went along the lines of frowning upon cheating...
     
  19. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    new generation

    in the arts "assimilation" became the term for copying someone else's work

    on here "reloading" is ok because "you learn" from it. lol
     
  20. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    Well definitely not the type of save and reloading that the OP has suggested :D! The only thing you will learn from that is maybe the concept of "Probability" ;)
     

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