Factory Nerfed!

[Soryn Arkayn]

I was recently informed that the Factory has been nerfed in the latest patch and I couldn't believe it. But it's true!

From what I remember, the Factory originally boosted production by +50% when Civ5 was released, and as far as I know it remained unchanged until the most recent patch, when it was inexplicably changed to +10% production and +4 hammers.

I know, that patch was months ago and I'm only realizing it now. But that's kind of my point. Players get so accustomed to the way the game is that when it gets updated and changed it's not apparent (because who reads that whole list of changes?), so we're unaware of how the changes effect our games.

A drop from +50% to only +10% is an unforgiveable and crippling change; and the +4 hammers doesn't mitigate it because 4 hammers is the equivalent of a late-game Mine. I know that the Factory also has 2 Engineer slots that increase production, and I can't remember if the Factory had 2 slots originally. But it doesn't matter. A Factory shouldn't need to be worked by 2 citizens to boost production. Once the Factory is built it should always provide +50% Production, even if the city's focus is on Growth, Science, Wealth, etc.

The only explanation I can think of for why it was changed was that it was intended to benefit Wide strategies. A few Tall cities in carefully chosen locations should have plenty of production, whereas Wide cities that are strewn everywhere and overlap don't have much production. Therefore the original +50% Factory wouldn't benefit Wide cities because they don't have as many Hammers compared to Tall cities, which is probably why the Factory was nerfed to only +10%, but gained +4 Hammers.

If my suspicion is correct, that the dev deliberately changed the Factory to benefit Wide civs at the expense of Tall civs, that is total BS!


I'm going to search for a Mod that hopefully restores the Factory to normal.

 

[michaeljhuman]

If I recall correctly, they changed quite a bit in that patch. You may want to look at every change that was made. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems in the big picture?

If production was 30 when you added the factory, you get 37.4 from +4/10% and 45 from +50%, so I can understand what you are saying. But I have not compared all of the changes in that patch. Such as REQURING workshop which I think was a change, to see if workshop was altered. Or if there were bonuses added for nearbye resources, etc.

 

[Mavfin]

(because who reads that whole list of changes?)

Actually, a good many of us *do* read all the changes.

If you don't, and then don't catch a change till months later, imo, you have only yourself to blame. The info was all there. You just didn't take time to read it, and then you come here and complain...

 

[chazzycat]

well they did also grant a substantial science boost for factories under Order. so yeah I'd say they are much better for wide empires now.

I think the intent was actually to shift the powerful production bonuses to be a bit later, i.e. solar and nuclear plants, to make the modern era more engaging. But still these are rarely built due to RA/GS dominance ending the games too fast. So it failed in that goal, and made wide empires a little better instead.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

If I recall correctly, they changed quite a bit in that patch. You may want to look at every change that was made. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems in the big picture?

If production was 30 when you added the factory, you get 37.4 from +4/10% and 45 from +50%, so I can understand what you are saying. But I have not compared all of the changes in that patch. Such as REQURING workshop which I think was a change, to see if workshop was altered. Or if there were bonuses added for nearbye resources, etc.

Actually, the Workshop has also been nerfed. Originally it was +20% Production; now it's +10% Production and +2 Hammers.

Also, the Windmill was originally +15% Production; now it's +2 Hammers and +10% Production for only buildings.

If you tally up all of the changes, the Workshop, Windmill, and Factory now provide -65% Production compared to the original Civ5; instead, they provide +8 Hammers.

That is an egregious and unforgiveable change -- especially when those changes blatantly benefit players who build Wide, and punish players who build Tall.

Actually, a good many of us *do* read all the changes.

If you don't, and then don't catch a change till months later, imo, you have only yourself to blame. The info was all there. You just didn't take time to read it, and then you come here and complain...

Maybe I should create a different thread with a poll asking how many people actually read the patch changes list. I'd be shocked if more than 25% of forum posters claim they do. Also bear in mind that only a fraction of Civ players participate in these forums, and I doubt any players who don't also don't read the patch info.

Regardless, it's not the point that I didn't read about the changes three months ago -- the changes to the Factory are still WRONG!

well they did also grant a substantial science boost for factories under Order. so yeah I'd say they are much better for wide empires now.

I think the intent was actually to shift the powerful production bonuses to be a bit later, i.e. solar and nuclear plants, to make the modern era more engaging. But still these are rarely built due to RA/GS dominance ending the games too fast. So it failed in that goal, and made wide empires a little better instead.

Ignore the Social Policy changes to Order that grant +25% Science with a Factory -- that's an entirely separate issue because it concerns a Social Policy and Science, not Production. Social Policies shouldn't factor into this at all because they're entirely separate from City buildings. Any city controlled by the Player can create any Building (certain buildings require other buildings, but there's a logical progression to them), whereas the Player has to choose which Social Policies. Just because certain SPs boost Production doesn't mean that Production buildings should be nerfed.

Firaxis deserves to be flamed for this night and day until they restore some balance to the game, and stop tailoring the game to suit Wide players at the expense of everyone else.

 

[joncnunn]

On the Workshop "nerf"
At the time the building first becomes available, there is a very good chance that a city's production gets improved more by +2hammers & 10% than it would under +20% and no hammers

10 hammers pre workshop:
old way: 10 + 20% = 12
new way: (10 + 2) + 10% = 13.2

20 hammers pre workshop.
old way: 20 + 20% = 24
new way: (20 + 2) + 10% = 24.2 (Still slightly better off with new way)
old way w specalist: 22 + 20% = 26.4
new way w specalist: (22 + 2) + 10% = 26.4 (break even)

 

[Mesix]

If memory serves, the Workshop had +20% to buildings and was changed to +2 and +10% to everything. I think the maintenance may also have been lowered. I didn't use to build Workshops much (maybe in a few key cities). Now I build them everywhere and often prioritize the Metal Casting technology to get access to them.

Don't underestimate the benefit of running engineer specialists...especially in the early game when the Workshop becomes available. A few GE can be game changing.

 

[Mavfin]

If memory serves, the Workshop had +20% to buildings and was changed to +2 and +10% to everything. I think the maintenance may also have been lowered. I didn't use to build Workshops much (maybe in a few key cities). Now I build them everywhere and often prioritize the Metal Casting technology to get access to them.

Don't underestimate the benefit of running engineer specialists...especially in the early game when the Workshop becomes available. A few GE can be game changing.

Exactly. And, for the OP, this goes back to reading *all* the changes, not just cherry picking the one you want to be unhappy about. Obviously, several of us here *did* read all the changes and take them into account. As part of a whole, I don't think the factory changes were 'wrong', as you say.

And if you still insist they're wrong? Mod the game to fix it, like everyone else.

 

[NotSure]

I think the nerf also had something to do with reduced hammer costs for units, buildings and wonders. Having said that, it does feel strange that factories aren't the single greatest production increasing building in the game. It seems silly to put that emphasis on solar panels.

My guess would be that if you poll people on these forums about reading the patch notes you'd get a result that doesn't represent most of the people who bought the game. I would be surprised if less than 80% of the people here didn't read them carefully, but that wasn't really the point of the OP.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

On the Workshop "nerf"
At the time the building first becomes available, there is a very good chance that a city's production gets improved more by +2hammers & 10% than it would under +20% and no hammers

10 hammers pre workshop:
old way: 10 + 20% = 12
new way: (10 + 2) + 10% = 13.2

20 hammers pre workshop.
old way: 20 + 20% = 24
new way: (20 + 2) + 10% = 24.2 (Still slightly better off with new way)
old way w specalist: 22 + 20% = 26.4
new way w specalist: (22 + 2) + 10% = 26.4 (break even)

I'd prefer the long-term benefit of +20% Production over the short-term benefit of +2 Production and +10%, no question.

Regardless, the changes to the Workshop greatly benefit Wide cities at the expense of Tall cities, because Wide cities will have lower Production because of fewer workable tiles, so +2 Production is more useful. It's possible that Wide cities will never exceed the break even point -- especially since Wide cities are usually set to focus on Science or Culture or Wealth; and if they don't focus on Production a citizen won't be assigned to Workshop's Engineer slot, so it's irrelevant.

If memory serves, the Workshop had +20% to buildings and was changed to +2 and +10% to everything. I think the maintenance may also have been lowered. I didn't use to build Workshops much (maybe in a few key cities). Now I build them everywhere and often prioritize the Metal Casting technology to get access to them.

Don't underestimate the benefit of running engineer specialists...especially in the early game when the Workshop becomes available. A few GE can be game changing.

I didn't mind that the old Workshop only provided +20% Production for buildings. It's still better than 10% and 2 Hammers for anything IMO. And maintenance is the same 2.

I'm well aware of the power of Great Engineers. Engineers are my favourite Wonder because they produce GEs so I can rush even more Wonders.

There haven't been any changes to the Workshop (positive or negative) that effect GE spawn rates, so that's irrelevant.

Exactly. And, for the OP, this goes back to reading *all* the changes, not just cherry picking the one you want to be unhappy about. Obviously, several of us here *did* read all the changes and take them into account. As part of a whole, I don't think the factory changes were 'wrong', as you say.

And if you still insist they're wrong? Mod the game to fix it, like everyone else.

I focused on the Factory because it was the most egregious change: from +50% to +10%, a difference of -40%, and a measely +4 Hammers.

As I've explained in this post, none of the arguments against the changes to the Workshop excuse the crippling, unnecessary, and unfair changes made to the Factory, Workshop, and Windmill.

You're blatantly trying to exploit my admission that I neglected to read every single change to Civ5 as a transparent attempt to undermine my opinions. You haven't provided a single point or argument for why the Factory is better the way it is now, which makes your petty comments irrelevant.

Worst of all you resorted to the last ditch, bottom of the barrel argument of: "If you don't like the game, just mod it."

I think the nerf also had something to do with reduced hammer costs for units, buildings and wonders. Having said that, it does feel strange that factories aren't the single greatest production increasing building in the game. It seems silly to put that emphasis on solar panels.

My guess would be that if you poll people on these forums about reading the patch notes you'd get a result that doesn't represent most of the people who bought the game. I would be surprised if less than 80% of the people here didn't read them carefully, but that wasn't really the point of the OP.

Firstly, trying to find reliable resources for the production costs of units, buildings, wonders, as well as research costs for Techs, as they were when Civ5 was released, is very difficult. Most resources are both not original and out of date -- even the Civilopedia is unreliable.

Second, not all production costs were reduced. Instead, each era seems to have a standardized production cost, and a lot of units were modified up and to that. For example, a Destroyer and Submarine both used to cost 380 Hammers, but now they cost 375. Whereas a Battleship and Carrier used to cost 500 and 520 Hammers, respectively, but now they inexplicably cost the same as a Destroyer or Submarine. Mech Infantry, Fighters, Bombers, Tanks, Paratroopers, and AA Guns now all cost 375 Hammers. Before MI cost 440, Fighter 420, Bomber 520, Tank 450, Para 350, and AA 300. Some went up, most went down, and they're all the same cost.

Regardless, that doesn't justify the Factory being nerfed.

Third, reducing the production costs of everything only strengthens my argument that the devs are favouring Wide players at the expense of Tall players. If they determined that one thing in particular was un-balanced, they only needed to change that one thing.

For example, if the Factory was considered too powerful, they'd reduce its Production bonus (which they did), but they'd leave production costs of units, buildings, and Wonders the same.

Or if they decided that units, buildings, and Wonders were too cheap, they'd raise their production costs, but leave the Factory the way it was.

But they DIDN'T. Instead, they reduced BOTH. Why?

The most likely explanation is so that Wide civs could afford to produce the cheaper units, buildings, and Wonders, and the Workshop and Factory were more useful to low-pop Wide cities. The disparity between the production increase of Wide cities to the production loss of Tall cities caused by the patch's changes is so grossly unfair that it's not only wrong, but it's blatantly biased. It's like Firaxis has deliberately chosen the Wide players over the Tall players, and is modding the game to solely benefit their play style.


Regarding what percentage of posters actually read the patch notes carefully -- a poll won't be an accurate measure of that because people would be inclined to lie that they do rather than admit they don't.

A more accurate test would be to secretly embed a hyperlink into the patch notes of the next official patch and count how many players notice it and click it. The link could lead to hidden page on CivFanatics where players could write down their forum handle. Then we tally up the names and compare them to the forum members active in the last 3 months or so, and see what the percentage is. I'd wager money that it was a lot less than 80%. As I said, I'd be shocked if it was more than 25%.

 

[Haig]

I LOVE to read the patch details and it includes both huge info (like when longswords' strenght dropped from 18 to 16) and also small info that's not so important.
I think it's important to at least skim through to see the big changes.

(P.S. I'm actually quite happy with the balance in basic rules, units and buildings in the game right now. What is needed next is new features and some changes to AI behavior like building bigger navies.)

 

[Teagen]

I'd say tall empires were favored too much. I almost never built more then 4 cities and then just had a bunch of puppets everywhere, there was almost no downside to doing this.

 

[Guanyu15]

I can't tell if he is just trolling us all or what.

A change was made. If you look at the numbers people gave you, it actually wan't that big of a change. (Yes 50% - 10% + 4 hammers appears like a lot, but look at the comments that came before me and you'll see it really isn't.) Do you really think this change was done in a vacuum? Don't you think it was done to balance something? In my opinion, that is the most important point and I'm happy they put the effort into it.

Still pretty sure you are just trolling though.

Moderator Action: Accusing others of trolling is considered trolling in itself. Please report posts you think are trolling, rather than responding to them.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

I'd say tall empires were favored too much. I almost never built more then 4 cities and then just had a bunch of puppets everywhere, there was almost no downside to doing this.

This doesn't make any sense.

Just because you chose Tall doesn't mean that the game favoured Tall empires. With Tall cities you always needed to invest in buildings and Wonders to maximize their efficiency, otherwise a Wide empire's farm of low-pop cities would out-produce you in Science and Wealth, and those civs would race ahead of you.

But the changes to the Production buildings in the last patch blatantly benefit Wide empires at the expense of Tall empires, giving the former a distinct advantage now.

These changes are in stark contrast to every previous version of Civ wherein the Factory provided +50% Production (Civ4 it was +25%, then an additional +25% with Power). So why was it suddenly dropped to 10% in Civ5? The only explanation is because Tall vs Wide strategies were introduced in Civ5.

I can't tell if he is just trolling us all or what.

A change was made. If you look at the numbers people gave you, it actually wan't that big of a change. (Yes 50% - 10% + 4 hammers appears like a lot, but look at the comments that came before me and you'll see it really isn't.) Do you really think this change was done in a vacuum? Don't you think it was done to balance something? In my opinion, that is the most important point and I'm happy they put the effort into it.

Still pretty sure you are just trolling though.

Did you even bother to read the previous posts before you accused me of trolling the thread I created.

The numbers that michaeljhuman provided proved how severely the nerfed Factory effected Production.

If production was 30 when you added the factory, you get 37.4 from +4/10% and 45 from +50%, so I can understand what you are saying.

The other numbers provided by joncnunn were for the Workshop, not the Factory. Admittedly, the changes to the Workshop weren't as severe as the Factory -- that's why I named this thread "Factory Nerfed!", not "Workshop Nerfed."

Regardless, the changes to all of the Production buildings demonstrates a deliberate pattern of the dev modding the game to benefit Wide to the detriment of Tall.

 

[chazzycat]

Ignore the Social Policy changes to Order that grant +25% Science with a Factory -- that's an entirely separate issue because it concerns a Social Policy and Science, not Production. Social Policies shouldn't factor into this at all because they're entirely separate from City buildings. Any city controlled by the Player can create any Building (certain buildings require other buildings, but there's a logical progression to them), whereas the Player has to choose which Social Policies. Just because certain SPs boost Production doesn't mean that Production buildings should be nerfed.

Firaxis deserves to be flamed for this night and day until they restore some balance to the game, and stop tailoring the game to suit Wide players at the expense of everyone else.

You conveniently ignored my 2nd paragraph regarding what I thought to be the devs' intent. There are still powerful production bonuses available, they are just further back in the tech tree now.

"Firaxis deserves to be flamed for this" is a little strong IMO.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

You conveniently ignored my 2nd paragraph regarding what I thought to be the devs' intent. There are still powerful production bonuses available, they are just further back in the tech tree now.

"Firaxis deserves to be flamed for this" is a little strong IMO.

Even if that was their intent, it doesn't make sense and it still isn't fair.

The powerful Production buildings are buried so deep in the Tech tree that most players will win the game before they research them, because veteran players usually only research the Techs they need to win.

The Solar Plant requires Ecology, which is in the Diplomatic Victory branch. But boosting Production isn't a priority for DVs, because it requires as much Gold as possible to bribe CS' into voting for your civ in the UN election.

The Nuclear Plant requires Nuclear Fission, which is in the arguably unnecessary Nuke branch. Nukes are fun, but veteran players don't need them to win a Domination Victory, and aggressive players can usually win before researching Nuclear Fission, so the Nuclear Plant is irrelevant.

Players going for Domination or Science Victories usually won't bother with either of those branches.

Regardless, the existence of those late-game Production buildings doesn't excuse the dev for nerfing the Factory, especially since the change blatantly benefits Wide players at the expense of Tall.

Most Wide players don't (or shouldn't) build Factories in their Wide cities, because they usually use them to farm Science and Wealth -- Production isn't a priority. Also, a Factory is so expensive that it would take too long for a low-pop Wide city to complete it. Let's say the average Wide city in the Industrial era has a population of 8 and produces 10 Hammers. It would take 36 turns to complete a Factory, which would only boost the city's Production from 10 to 13.2, and cost -3 GpT in maintenance -- not worth it.

So if a Factory isn't even worth building for Wide cities, why was it nerfed? The only explanation is to take away the +50% Production boost it used to provide Tall cities. The average Tall city in the Industrial era probably has a population of 16 and Base Production of 40. The original Factory would've boosted +20 Hammers to 60 -- well worth the -3 GpT maintenance; but the nerfed Factory only boosts it to 48.4; that's 11.6 Hammers less.

I'm sorry for beating a dead horse, but the only explanation for this is Wide favoritism. And IME Firaxis absolutely deserves to be flamed for that.

 

[qemist]

I think the nerf also had something to do with reduced hammer costs for units, buildings and wonders. Having said that, it does feel strange that factories aren't the single greatest production increasing building in the game. It seems silly to put that emphasis on solar panels.

Quite. Solar panels don't manufacture anything. They produce expensive electricity.

 

[Mavfin]

I'm sorry for beating a dead horse, but the only explanation for this is Wide favoritism. And IME Firaxis absolutely deserves to be flamed for that.

Put your whip away. In *your* opinion, it's wrong, but, several in this thread disagree with you, as well as Firaxis.

Fact is, I liked the change. It makes production less of a one-trick pony via the Factory. If you want it back to that, I'll go back to the answer you didn't like the first time. Mod the game yourself, and have it all your way. Make mines 10 production if you want.

Fact is, you came off in your original post as if to say "How dare they change my game! Of course, I can't be bothered to read the changes, it's too much reading!" Such an approach will not engender sympathy, particularly here, where a lot of us DO read patch notes.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

Put your whip away. In *your* opinion, it's wrong, but, several in this thread disagree with you, as well as Firaxis.

Fact is, I liked the change. It makes production less of a one-trick pony via the Factory. If you want it back to that, I'll go back to the answer you didn't like the first time. Mod the game yourself, and have it all your way. Make mines 10 production if you want.

Fact is, you came off in your original post as if to say "How dare they change my game! Of course, I can't be bothered to read the changes, it's too much reading!" Such an approach will not engender sympathy, particularly here, where a lot of us DO read patch notes.

The all-knowing Reader returns. Lemme guess, you work for a bank or credit card company that blames people for not reading the fine print of their ridiculously long and convoluted legal contracts and agreements.


It's ironic that you claim to revere reading so much, but you apparently haven't bothered to carefully read people's posts in this thread. No one explicitly stated that they disagreed with my opinion that the changes are wrong.

The concensus seems to be as follows:

"It's not as bad as it seems in the big picture." - michaeljhuman

"so yeah I'd say they are much better for wide empires now.... So it failed in that goal, and made wide empires a little better instead." - chazzycat

"Having said that, it does feel strange that factories aren't the single greatest production increasing building in the game. It seems silly to put that emphasis on solar panels." - NotSure

"I'm actually quite happy with the balance in basic rules, units and buildings in the game right now." - haig

It's far from a majority disgreement with my opinion. It's more "It's not so bad." And that's because it's been over three months since the patch imposed these unbalanced changes, which is why Players have gotten used to them and it isn't such a hot issue.

My point is that changes were wrong and blatantly biased, and we shouldn't have had to get used to them.

I searched long and hard for topics related to mine, and the only one I could find was this one created by MadDjinn on August 29: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=437947

It doesn't address the nerfed Factories in much detail, but it relates to my accurate contention that Firaxis has blatantly changed the game balance to favour Wide empires at the expense of Tall empires.


Modding the game is a lame excuse and just proves that you don't have a let to stand on. Just like your futile attempts to dismiss my opinions because I didn't read all of the patch notes.

The fact is, the reason why I admitted that I didn't read them was to explain why I didn't learn the extent of egregious changes to the Factory and other Production buildings until recently. That's why I created this thread now, and not three months ago. As far as I can tell the specific changes to the Factory from the patch went largely unnoticed by everyone -- it's as if the majority of posters here weren't aware of it because they didn't read the patch notes either.

So get off your high horse about carefully reading the patch notes. It's irrelevant to this discussion.

Moderator Action: Keep the personal attacks out of it, please.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[SuperJay]

Seriously, who doesn't read patch notes? Especially for games like Civ? Let alone other software that's actually important?

Must be odd to ignore those logs and have the game (or your software tools) change out from under you. I can't imagine not knowing what changes were made or when. Guess it's just considered old-school to read your patch notes these days.