1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Faith as a Measure of Intellect

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CheScott, Aug 2, 2008.

?

Which faiths, if any, do you believe have no rational legs to stand on?

  1. None, faith and intelligence are unrelated.

    59 vote(s)
    53.2%
  2. Some faiths are, in my view, totally stupid. (Choose as many as you like)

    48 vote(s)
    43.2%
  3. Judiasm

    30 vote(s)
    27.0%
  4. Islam

    36 vote(s)
    32.4%
  5. Scientology

    60 vote(s)
    54.1%
  6. Mormonism

    41 vote(s)
    36.9%
  7. Christianity

    29 vote(s)
    26.1%
  8. Catholocism

    33 vote(s)
    29.7%
  9. Any religion other than my own is logical fallacy.

    7 vote(s)
    6.3%
  10. Any sect other than my own is logical fallacy.

    8 vote(s)
    7.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    It's too late for me to teach you what logic is. Maybe you should wiki it. It might help!

    You can't prove God does not exist. Only idiots think you can (generally, there's some smart ways around this but it's not wrth getting into), and only idiots think that because you can't you aren't justified in believing God does not exist.
     
  2. scy12

    scy12 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    5,181
    So The method of Introspection already contains in it , observation (In addition to evaluation i guess) ? And new semantic content , are new meaning(s) given to something ? In that case one has to use Observation again and then logic.

    So there are example where you can reach a new set of truth without using observation but only Logic where the conclusions are found from some axioms. But who is to say that we can't use observation and then logic ....
     
  3. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    We can, should and do! It's just that when you introduce observations and introspection, then it's not just logic anymore.
     
  4. scy12

    scy12 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    5,181
    But Perf , you are not answering the question , who is to blame for that failure !

    So who is to blame Logic/introspection, Or the Data we Observe which are insufficient ?

    Actually It feels like it is too late to teach me what Introspection is. (Better late than never) I never heard of the term , but i imagine is a combination of continues observation and logic , and i am wondering if that is the case.


    There is no way to prove that Three horned Dragons do not exist also. The reasoning may not be entirely logical one , but is an assumption that so far as their is no evidence to prove that it does exist , there is no reason to believe in a being that there is any evidence that can influence the world.

    And , as a dribble it used the reasoning that our possition should default to it does not exist until evidence of the contrary so we don't worry about everything that may or may not exist.

    Not perfectly logical but it bases it on the assumption " Since there is no evidence it can exist or influence me i should stop worrying about the fact that it may exist and default my view on it doesn't" as that would be more convenient.

    So under an interpretation it may be stupid. Ironically it does use some faith.

    In addition there is another subject related to this that can be examined. That is not whether A spagheti monster exists but whether Religions claiming to be telling the truth of the world and there version of the spagheti monster , are doing so.

    The Problem of evil for example targets specifically an omnipotent God , who is as Good as possible , but yet there is much evil in the world.

    I think that type of negative proof can exist. That is because it's evidence of non existence is the whole dogma. Which creates/imagines a being which by definition can not exist in this world.


    {Now i imagine that invincible monsters would be harder to disprove , even when we amass far more knowledge about the world , due to the nature of their myth. But maybe we reach a point where we can tell with certainty " We have the power to detect such things if they exist". That is problematic though since by definition invincible beasts should never be able to be detected. }

    What do you think about the passage inside the {} ?
     
  5. Syterion

    Syterion Voodoo Economist

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2003
    Messages:
    4,287
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Intelligence =/= rationality. No religion has "rational" legs to stand on since they aren't based on logic. Doesn't mean the believer is stupid. We are all irrational about some things.
     
  6. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,438
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Dude, you can't just pick and choose here. If you think that Mormons, generally, are so far intellectually compromised that you wouldn't consider voting for one.. well.. why not say the same thing about a Catholic.. or a Lutheran? or a Muslim for that matter?

    All of these relgions (and all religions in general, really) believe things that outsiders will shake their heads at (in a "they believe WHAT??" kinda way).

    So if YOU want to be intellectually honest, you'd concede that this sort of thing is person-specific, not religion-specific. There are rational Mormons out there.. and irrational agnostics.
     
  7. Defiant47

    Defiant47 Peace Sentinel

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    5,602
    Location:
    Canada
    Not to get into semantics (pun intended), but couldn't I just adjust my "truth-gathering method" remarks into "truth-filtering method" for Fifty's comments? We obtain truth by inspection. We filter truth through various ways, of which one is logic. Logic has been proven to be the most consistent (with repetitive use) truth-filtering method, so we use it.
     
  8. scy12

    scy12 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    5,181
    Exactly.......
     
  9. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    Well, to think of this only in terms of observations and logic is pretty foolish. That's why I'm not answering it, because I think it's very ill framed. People don't arrive to the belief or disbelief in God by making observations, carefully turning them into logical statements and then calculating an answer. They base it on observations, desires, intuition and the like.

    Introspection is looking within oneself for answers. One might come up with something like, "claims without reasons should generally be held incorrect", which is not a logical claim, nor something really based on observation. Even though some would argue it is correct (which I think at first glance it is).

    Well I can think of something that I believe in that I believe cannot influence the world. That is continued space-time outside of the observable universe. There's absolutely no way to see this, but it does have a reason for belief in my view, mathematical simplicity. I'm not saying the belief in God is justified or nothin' only that your arguments are kinda sophmoric. Of course, plenty of religious folks do say there is evidence too. So as an argument against religious people in general it sorta sucks.

    It's not stupid, just not logical. But that's okay.

    As for the rest of your post Scy12, they're all okay renditions of common reasons people disbelieve. I don't care to nitpick your interpretation specifically. I should just note that none of them are based on logic and observation alone. (Where's the logic or observation that it's not okay for people to suffer?)
     
  10. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    Logic is useful, but it's just not used here. ;)
     
  11. StarWorms

    StarWorms Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,348
    Location:
    England
    People in a car crash who end up with a shard of glass in their body are probably very likely to die, but of course there will be some survivors. My point being that just because a few smart people may fall into a dumb trap, it doesn't mean that smart people in general are just as likely to fall into the trap as a dumb person.
     
  12. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    17,185
    Location:
    the golf course
    Yer confusing an instinct (eat food) with thought processes - intelligence and faith. And I am "connecting" them only in that the latter replaces the former even for the smartest people in the world. Thats true throughout history and you "refuted" me by claiming everyone was a believer up until recently. That aint true, but even if it was, so what?

    What is this very seldom property? Translate that and show how it applies to my argument.
     
  13. Riffraff

    Riffraff Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,059
    Location:
    Munich
    ok, apparantly we're speaking different languages here - I'm out :(
     
  14. scy12

    scy12 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    5,181
    You raised some interesting points but i am more interested of only addressing one thing. Is there anything you believe that does not exist ? Do you think you are wrong for believing that ?
     
  15. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    Of course I do, and I have no problem whatsoever with people believing certain things don't exist. It's just that such beliefs require stuff other then logic.
     
  16. Abaddon

    Abaddon Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    31,187
    Location:
    NES/FG/SF Activity:Arguing the toss
    We're all idiots
     
  17. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain

Share This Page