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Faith as a Measure of Intellect

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CheScott, Aug 2, 2008.

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Which faiths, if any, do you believe have no rational legs to stand on?

  1. None, faith and intelligence are unrelated.

    59 vote(s)
    53.2%
  2. Some faiths are, in my view, totally stupid. (Choose as many as you like)

    48 vote(s)
    43.2%
  3. Judiasm

    30 vote(s)
    27.0%
  4. Islam

    36 vote(s)
    32.4%
  5. Scientology

    60 vote(s)
    54.1%
  6. Mormonism

    41 vote(s)
    36.9%
  7. Christianity

    29 vote(s)
    26.1%
  8. Catholocism

    33 vote(s)
    29.7%
  9. Any religion other than my own is logical fallacy.

    7 vote(s)
    6.3%
  10. Any sect other than my own is logical fallacy.

    8 vote(s)
    7.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    Faith is not evidence of reason, or lack of reason.

    Faith is evidence of a deep-seated human need to explain and describe things, including those things that reasons and logic cannot yet explain or describe. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

    However, where it becomes wrong, is one insist that the faith-born answer must be true even in the face of reason-born ones. Even more so, when they insist on imposing their faith-born answers on others, even when reason present other, different answers.

    In short, I have nothing against people who have faith, no matter how deep, so long as their faith remain private. When they try to impose their faith on society, whether through children's education (Int. Design) or through writing the laws based on what their Faith tells them, this is when my opinion of them begin to freefalling.

    I am not of your faith, and should not have to live by what your Faith tell you is right.
     
  2. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    What I am saying is that logic cannot possibly detect it, by definition. It is completely useless, in such a scenario.

    I do not use faith to prove anything, so I do not see why you would even touch on that.

    You try to twist things around, but you are not proving what you think you are proving.

    I say logic cannot determine it.
    You two say logic can work somewhat.
    I say there is no possible way to tell.
    You say logic can work somewhat, and that I am just using it wrong.

    If it does not work perfectly, it does not give any solid conclusion.
     
  3. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    Right, but we may never come to that point, where we can determine something, using any method.

    Would you agree with that?
     
  4. Defiant47

    Defiant47 Peace Sentinel

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    It is equally useless as faith. However, it has a one-up on faith: it's correct in more instances.

    Trying to show that religion requires faith, and faith is by definition the anti-thesis of logic.

    Logic cannot determine it. Faith cannot determine it. Logic is correct much more often than faith. So why use faith?
     
  5. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Logic is unfortunately deeply related with our current data or information.
    That means it is not flawless but it is the only method we have.


    Today however we have found some logical theories about almost every phenomenon humanity has ever witnessed and an outstanding number of questions has been partially answered. Other than questions having to do with beings with no evidence related to them. Rather than wonder about them i consider it much more beneficial to wonder about those things science has found several evidence about but still has along with it's answer , questions.

    It gives the most solid conclusions which the human mind can understand. We don't have a choice.
     
  6. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    Defiant: Logic cannot be determined to be correct. This could be an instance of logic failing. Apparently, you think I use faith to determine that I am right. That is not true.

    Scy:

    "Logic is unfortunately deeply related with our current data or information.
    That means it is not flawless but it is the only method we have."

    That does not make it any more useful.
     
  7. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    It makes it the most useful. Except if there is something more useful or of equal nature.

    Do you agree with the theory of Gravity ? (Actually Gravity is a question partially answered but the reality is we got answers as truthful as we could , amd such answers lead us to a better understanding of the world and how to use it in our advantage. The more we seek the more answers we will get. The most flawed way to use logic , or truth finding is by not using logic at all or as much as you should.

    The world we live in today is certainly a testimonty to the fact that logic provided many answers and revealed a small part of the big truth of everything our mind can understand.

    So i understand logic can not provide all the answers. But is the only way we will get some new answers. And getting some new answers is the best thing we can do.
     
  8. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    Certainly. There are domains where faith could well remain the only possible source of answer.

    Similarly, the development of new answers is probably one chief reason why Atheism and Agnosticism are growing : as more answers are found, more people find themselves able to be content with the answers reasons and logic give them, and without need for additional answers.

    As I said in my edit to the post you quoted, whether or not someone has faith does not change my view of them in and of itself. I've met perfectly reasonable and logical people who nonetheless had deep faith, and perfectly unreasonable atheists whom I wouldn't want to spend time with - and the other way around.
     
  9. Defiant47

    Defiant47 Peace Sentinel

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    There are perhaps more instances of it failing than that. Faith, however, fails much more often.

    I am trying to show you that faith is the willful abandonment of logic and intellect (in one or more specific areas).
     
  10. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    Something cannot be the most useful, if it tries to measure something it cannot measure at all. :crazyeye:

    Logic and intellect are separate things.
     
  11. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    I agree. Logic reveals some truths and provide some answers out of the infinite amount of answers and truths to be found. It obviously measures something out of everything. As it is the only method which can do it , is therefor is the most useful.

    What is an intelligent estimation over how did the Humans came to exist ,after the earth was created/formed ?
     
  12. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    It does not measure something out of everything. You just assume it does.
     
  13. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    The fact that i am using this device to communicate with a person tens thousands of Miles away tells me that it did find some answers right. And if that is an assumption then everything a human being can know is an assumption. But there are assumptions with a higher probability of them being truth than others. And those are more worth pursuing , therefor we are using logic to better our situation. Do you disagree ? If not what is the point of this discussion ?

    What other way do you propose ? And do you deny that we have gotten some answers out of logic ?
     
  14. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    You just used the word some.

    So, you know the probability of knowing about the existence of a divine or supernatural power... let's see the formula.

    I'm telling you there is no other way that any of use know. There is no way to find out, given our current systems.
     
  15. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    So you believe logic to be useful in all other areas other than this ?

    I agree that logic can not tell us about how we can know that something with no evidence found to support it , with no clear definition of what it is , does not exist. It can tell us that it can not prove it does exist. I claim it can tell us about those who created all Religions of how likely they are to be inspired by the divine which we have no evidence about.

    So where there is something with no evidence in favor that is supported by something else with no evidence in favor who also say sother things that are proven wrong. If we add out knowledge of the human imagination and the ability to create false stories and spread it ,and believe extraordinary things which where proven wrong because not all myths are about invincible Deites, i think we can make an educated guess that it is more likely to be a human constructed myth than a fact. Again Logic has some answers while faith provides none , other than believe me because i say so.

    Total truth . Inaccessible. Some truth that is added to the previous truths found = logic.

    Anything else finds out nothing.
     
  16. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    Logic is only useful in areas, where it is meant to be used. That is the physical world.

    It is not possible for it to explain otherwise.

    You said if a hammer can pound nails, giving us lots of boxes from wood nailed together, we could then use the hammer to saw a piece of wood in half. After all, it is the only tool we have.
     
  17. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    See post where i ask more information about this non physical world (What it is , how do you know it exists) and what is a better tool to use for finding some answers for it.

    Simply , dude there are some things you should expand more and you can't just say them and not add the relevant information because i am certainly going to ask you about it.

    I already asked you this before but it was lost in the discussion.
     
  18. Fifty

    Fifty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    I really want to jump into this thread and correct all the wild misconceptions about logic, the nature of confirmation, justification, epistemology in general, but the errors are so many that I can't figure out where to jump in the discussion. :sad:
     
  19. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Have you ever jumped in such discussion ?!
     
  20. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Faith is useful when evidence is not available.

    The author of Mark used faith to believe that Jesus endorsed the Flood myth. He didn't have anything better to work with, and wanted to believe in Jesus.

    The council of Milan used faith to put the gospel of Mark and II Peter into the Bible, and to think of them as scripture, probably Inspired Scripture. Faith and its associated feelings lead them to believe that they were in the right.

    Now, we can use faith that the author of Mark actually witnessed Jesus endorse the Flood myth. I don't mind that, it's reasonable.

    But now we have evidence that the Flood myth is false. It's foolish to not reexamine all the previous faiths that lead to old theologies. Does one want to actually believe that Jesus endorsed the Flood myth? Or does one want to assume that the author of Mark misquoted Jesus?
     

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