Faith Schools

[Truronian]

Did anyone catch the Richard Dawkins documentary on More4 last night about faith schools? It was a very good and very worrying hour.

For those of you outside the UK, some background. In the UK about a third of public schools are so called "faith schools". They receive funding from the government and get to include an unregulated faith element in the syllabus... Muslim schools teach about Islam, Jewish schools about Judaism etc. They also get to set faith based criteria for parents who want there children to go to the school.

What does OT think of these? There are a few questions at work here:

1) Should they be publicly funded?
2) Should they be regulated by the government?
3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?
4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?
5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?

 

[madviking]

Foreword, this is (obviously) an American POV.

1 - No, and they can't.
2 - No, see above.
3 - No, as they are not public, they are allowed to have their own curricula.
4 - If their parents feel that way, then religious schools should be able to.
5 - To me, no, but it cannot be simplified to that for all religious schools.

 

[Haseri]

Yes, I too found it worrying. My V+ box didn't record the last few minutes, so I don't know exactly how it ended.

I pretty much agree with Dawkins on this. The examples from NI were very discomforting: that there is another generation segregated from others.

I would also worry about what the children at that Windmill Primary said about why things are the way they are. But my Media Studies mindset kicked in and that is probably a constructed piece: I expect (and hope) many children chose the other options, and those were only ones included for time and to get the point across.

My favourite part was when he asked the muslim girl what they were taught in science on the subject, that she wanted to know his opinion on the matter of evolution, and he answered "Well, I'll tell you the answer..."

 

[Lillefix]

1 hell no(and here in Norway they are)
2 Yes
3 I suppose they can add all kind of garbage(read religion), as long as they include the national syllabus
4 that's the point with them, isn't it?
5 I don't think so

 

[Quackers]

Let'em do it.
Just monitor the Islam faith schools for Islamists and violent nutters.

 

[Truronian]

Yes, I too found it worrying. My V+ box didn't record the last few minutes, so I don't know exactly how it ended.

I pretty much agree with Dawkins on this. The examples from NI were very discomforting: that there is another generation segregated from others.

I would also worry about what the children at that Windmill Primary said about why things are the way they are. But my Media Studies mindset kicked in and that is probably a constructed piece: I expect (and hope) many children chose the other options, and those were only ones included for time and to get the point across.

My favourite part was when he asked the muslim girl what they were taught in science on the subject, that she wanted to know his opinion on the matter of evolution, and he answered "Well, I'll tell you the answer..."

The science teacher not being able to answer one of the most common questions about evolution made me sad.

4 that's the point with them, isn't it?

I mean the subject of R.E. here, rather than the ethos of the school. For example, the school I went to was Methodist. We had Methodist assemblies and church services and R.E. had a heavy Christianity focus. I'm addressing the latter element here, the R.E. lessons themselves.

 

[Lillefix]

I mean the subject of R.E. here, rather than the ethos of the school. For example, the school I went to was Methodist. We had Methodist assemblies and church services and R.E. had a heavy Christianity focus. I'm addressing the latter element here, the R.E. lessons themselves.

In that case, yes, depending on the national curriculum. I'm not saying the national curriculum should dictate everything, I'm just saying it should represent the absolute minimum of what has to be taught.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Foreword, this is (obviously) an American POV.

1 - No, and they can't.
2 - No, see above.
3 - No, as they are not public, they are allowed to have their own curricula.
4 - If their parents feel that way, then religious schools should be able to.
5 - To me, no, but it cannot be simplified to that for all religious schools.

I agree with everything this chap here sez.

 

[spryllino]

No, yes, yes, no, no.

We ought to positively ban faith schools because they embed tosh in the minds of students and fail to teach solid fact from a neutral perspective. In my opinion, we ought to be rid of private schools, single-sex schools, and grammar schools too, because they (and for that matter faith schools) take teaching talent away from the normal Comprehensives. Taking away all these irregular schools would solve all sorts of social and curricular issues, and, in my opinion, would be a commendable step towards fair and good education for all.

 

[iHawX]

1) Should they be publicly funded? - No
2) Should they be regulated by the government? - No
3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus? - Yes
4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion? - Yes
5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children? - I think, that it isn't moral, to teach religion as truth to anyone.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Did anyone catch the Richard Dawkins documentary on More4 last night about faith schools? It was a very good and very worrying hour.

For those of you outside the UK, some background. In the UK about a third of public schools are so called "faith schools". They receive funding from the government and get to include an unregulated faith element in the syllabus... Muslim schools teach about Islam, Jewish schools about Judaism etc. They also get to set faith based criteria for parents who want there children to go to the school.

What does OT think of these? There are a few questions at work here:

1) Should they be publicly funded?
2) Should they be regulated by the government?
3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?
4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?
5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?

Strictly speaking, it is not contrary to British law, as I understand it, to fund faith based schools. While the UK respects all religions, there is no separation of church and state, as the Church of England is funded by the state. If they can fund one religion, they can fund others.

I myself am opposed to indoctrinating the youth with ancient mythology, but at least in the UK, I'd have no legal basis. In the US, we do have a separation of church and state, embedded into the Constitution. It is illegal for the state to favor any religion, which has often meant a court decision whereby all religions have to be equally favored.

 

[Aramazd]

1) Should they be publicly funded?

No.

2) Should they be regulated by the government?

yes

3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?

yes

4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?

well that's the point, so yes.

5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?

No.

 

[civver_764]

1) Should they be publicly funded?

Nah.

2) Should they be regulated by the government?

Well they have to teach kids actual education and just made up conspiracy theories like intelligent design.

3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?

Depends on what the national syllabus is.

4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?

No.

5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?

Absolutely not.

 

[really]

I'll watch it now - I was out last night and forgot to record it.

Something like 98% of all primary schools in the republic of Ireland have a religious ethos - I think we need a good dose of secularism.

If schools have more applicants than spaces they can discriminate on religious grounds - some parents baptize their children to avoid this.

It has also led to the ghettoizing of some schools where all children of non catholic parents end up in one school - those parents tending to be immigrants.

School Year
2009/10
School Ethos No of Schools % of Total

CATHOLIC 2,888 91.25%
CHURCH OF Ireland 181 5.72%
MULTI DENOMINATIONAL 69 2.18%
PRESBYTERIAN 14 0.44%
INTER DENOMINATIONAL 8 0.25%
MUSLIM 2 0.06%
METHODIST 1 0.03%
JEWISH 1 0.03%
Quaker 1 0.03%
Total 3,165

RTE article
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0803/education_primary.html
DOE PDF:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0803/education.pdf

Edit: the report and numbers came from the department of education where they are trying to work with the Catholic church to break their monopoly in certain areas.

 

[Moonbat]

Moonland is way backwards. I was taught that god exists, god guides evolution, we prayed everyday, we sang and learned religious hymns, we studied the biblical stories quite a bit and all kind of religious rubbish. Just horrible. It's funny tho, I prayed once on my own before going to bed when I was 11 and that experience was enough to make me an atheist. I never really got what it was about religion despite all that religious brainwashing. I just couldn't understand it like other kids did. Moonland could use some secularisation. Such a turd of a country. And they rank this country's educational system one of the best in the world, hahaha.

 

[dwaxe]

Just goes to show how easily ignorance is passed down through generations. The schools that Dawkins showed are fertile grounds for indoctrination.

This is one issue on which I admire the status quo of the United States--no public funding and virtually no regulation of private religious schools.

There are rare incidences in which public schools are corrupted by well-meaning zealots, but, luckily, they are few and far between.

 

[useless]

Let'em do it.
Just monitor the Islam faith schools for Islamists and violent nutters.

Why specifically Islam?

 

[cardgame]

ITT: people I agree with

 

[Masada]

tl;dr? Richard Dawkins finds he doesn't like religious education. Surprised, well no?

I would also worry about what the children at that Windmill Primary said about why things are the way they are. But my Media Studies mindset kicked in and that is probably a constructed piece: I expect (and hope) many children chose the other options, and those were only ones included for time and to get the point across.

Well at least someone has a thinking cap on.

 

[Traitorfish]

For those of you outside the UK, some background. In the UK about a third of public schools are so called "faith schools". They receive funding from the government and get to include an unregulated faith element in the syllabus... Muslim schools teach about Islam, Jewish schools about Judaism etc. They also get to set faith based criteria for parents who want there children to go to the school.

It's worth noting that a large number of these are Catholic schools, which are traditionally partially funded by the Roman Catholic Church and generally stick to the usual curriculum outside of the areas of religious and social education. They're even tighter in Scotland, as they are fully publicly funded- a peculiarity which results from the Scottish education system being originally parochial- so they aren't allowed to stray one inch from the syllabus outside of religious and social education, and have less ability to discriminate as to attendance (we had a small number of Protestants, Muslims and Sikhs in attendance, for example, each for their own reasons).

Anyway, I'm sort of torn. I don't think a Catholic education did me any good, but I don't think it did me much harm, either, so I tend to think that they should either be fully private, or, as in Scotland, publicly funded but tightly controlled. I'm not sure that the latter is an absolute right, but it seems a decent enough compromise for those who wish to give their kids a vaguely religious education but who cannot afford private schools (or are not so hardcore about their faith as to be interested anyway).

Why specifically Islam?

Because it is no longer socially acceptable to openly discriminate against Catholics and Jews.