Faith Schools

[Perfection]

Children should be led in chains into a windowless gray building where they are nonexistence of God, Santa, and free will is repeatedly drilled into their little skulls.

 

[Masada]

Because it is no longer socially acceptable to openly discriminate against Catholics and Jews.

Speak for yourself Papist!

 

[Quackers]

Why specifically Islam?

Because Islamic extremism is a serious problem and I don't want it to happen?

 

[_random_]

I'm enrolled in a protestant school at the moment (with some Catholic students). Since this is America, damnit, government funding isn't a problem. I have no problem with religious schools existing under these circumstances, or religious education in general, but I wouldn't mind more regulation on the curriculum. Namely, I wish evolution could be taught from a less, shall we say, stupid, perspective. But this is America, damnit, so that's not happening any time soon.

 

[warpus]

I went to a catholic highschool here in Canada. It is funded by the state. The catholic highschools are exactly the same as regular highschools, except that you have to take religion in grades 9 and 10. Grade 10 religion is "world religions" and actually pretty interesting. Other than that we had a chapel, which nobody ever used, and every once in a while there'd be "church" in the morning, so what happened was all the "cool kids" skipped church, slept in, and came to school later. Oh, and you had to pray every morning before class, which was pretty homosexual.

I'm not sure why it's set up the way it is, probably some sort of accident of history. It's not that bad so I didn't really care. Evolution was taught in biology, the 3d earth theory was taught in geography, and even the priest who taught religion class was pretty open minded about us calling him out on stupid religious bs.

I do have a problem with "faith schools" being funded by the state in theory, but in this particular case here in Canada it isn't so bad, so I'm kinda torn..

 

[Lillefix]

I do have a problem with "faith schools" being funded by the state in theory, but in this particular case here in Canada it isn't so bad, so I'm kinda torn..

I think that's how religious schools used to be. And I think that up until recently, most Christian schools were more or less like that.

This new fundamentalist evangelical ACE school from the US is a very different beast though.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Did anyone catch the Richard Dawkins documentary on More4 last night about faith schools? It was a very good and very worrying hour.

For those of you outside the UK, some background. In the UK about a third of public schools are so called "faith schools". They receive funding from the government and get to include an unregulated faith element in the syllabus... Muslim schools teach about Islam, Jewish schools about Judaism etc. They also get to set faith based criteria for parents who want there children to go to the school.

What does OT think of these? There are a few questions at work here:

1) Should they be publicly funded?
2) Should they be regulated by the government?
3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?
4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?
5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?

Hello, outside of the UK here.

1) Public funding of religious teaching constitutes a government endorsement and propagation of religion. In the opinion of basically all non-religious people, and I *believe* a majority of religious people, that's not what the government needs to get involved in.

2) In what manner? In terms of content, the content should be determined by experts in the field, those who have extensive experience in education, and the content should be fairly uncontroversial and teach things that they will need to be able to be employable and also get a head start on college. Generally speaking I don't want to have people getting involved that don't have expertise on the matter, and sometimes that can be politicians with a thumb where it doesn't belong. But so long as tax payers are funding it, they can impose whatever regulations they wish.

3) If the national syllabus is a good standard. I don't know much of UK educational standards. But it's probably a good starting point. I'd defer to the educational experts here.

4) Shouldn't be on the public's dime. You either offer a secular, historical perspective on "religion", not a particular religion, or you don't teach about any religion. IMO religion is best left to social studies and history classes, where just the facts are covered and no one religion is favored.

5) I have a VERY strong opinion on this. Teaching religion as fact to children is wholly reckless, dishonest, and irresponsible. A person should be able to choose their faith, not have it ingrained into them from birth. Thankfully even that sort of damage isn't irreversible.

It's horrible enough when parents do it, but when the government and teachers are also pushing that carp down kids throats, then every single institution children turn to for guidance is all telling them one thing. Most people aren't strong enough to question that, and they will just join it to fit in, even if it makes them uncomfortable. Nothing is as soul-sucking to an impressionable child as to be forced to assimilate into a religion.

 

[bombshoo]

I went to a Catholic school and despite the occaisonal nonsense, it was much better than any of the public schools I would have been stuck with. The benefit to religious schools is they don't have the problems that public school often has, but are usually still fairly affordable.

The public funding is a good thing as it forces them into some regulation so they can't teach complete garbage and get away with it. What the public funds could be used for was very restricted in my school. For example, I remember one time I wrote a story for my creative writing class (a course most schools have these days). When I tried to print it off in the library, the librarian wouldn't allow me because the only printer not in use had been paid for using public money. The particular assignment wasn't religious at all, but because that course had assignments with a religious bend in the pass (Nothing weird, just like "How has your faith influenced you?"), it wasn't allowed. I had to walk across the school to the theology department office and print it there. At the time it seemed sort of stupid to me, but it makes sense and as long as regulation is like this I have little problem with some public funding.

Perhaps my school was particularly good about this sort of thing compared to other schools but it isn't like my school couldn't have existed without the dozen printers, projectors and other random crap they provided us anyways. I doubt it even really affected the student fees. The public funding was really just used to reduce some equipment burdens and generally make life more pleasant, not used to push some agenda.

 

[Tacitusitis]

Really the most shocking part of this documentary is there are Anglicans who believe in God.

 

[cardgame]

Not available in my area, sadly, when I tried to watch the video. Is there a youtube version?

 

[wolfigor]

1) Should they be publicly funded?
Personal view: No, they should not.
If they want to have autonomy from state then they should live without the funding too.

Norway: get funds
Italy: get funds

2) Should they be regulated by the government?
Personal view: Every school, public or private should be regulated from state to ensure quality levels to match or exceed national average, no "cheating" (some private school live thanks to give degrees to students that will never make it in a state school), and to ensure that the school doesn't teach anything contrary to the law (e.g. racial or religious hate).

Norway: Yes
Italy: Yes (but with a very large directionality)



3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?
Personal view: that's the minimum baseline.
At the end of the study cycle, to get the certification/degree, student must pass an exam based on the national syllabus.
Clearly insistence on bogus stuff like creationism will not help them to pass the exam.
There should be also inspections about how they tech every subject.
For example, they cannot teach astronomy and say that our planet is at the centre of the universe and everything else spins around it.
More importantly the state should grade every private school against the national average.

Norway: Yes
Italy: Yes (exams are standardised at national level, but there is again a certain degree of "tolerance" for private/religious schools)

5 I don't think so
4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?
Personal view: why not, R.E. should not be part of the national syllabus anyway, so whatever extra it's at their discretion.

Norway: Yes
Italy: Yes (WTF, even in state schools there is R.E. that should be unbiased. However in most cases the teachers are appointed by the Catholic church, so they tend to don't favour the competition).
Students can opt out after formal request, but that will mark them apart especially if the school director is a believer.


5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?
Personal view: well... in a faith school that's the base of their own existence.
We have freedom of religion and so people can believe their faith is truth and the only true one regardless what reality show them everyday.

The public funding is a good thing as it forces them into some regulation so they can't teach complete garbage and get away with it.

In my view, all school should be regulated according to state rules regardless if they receive fundings or not.
This is to ensure a baseline of quality and make certifications and degrees comparable between schools.
If a faith school teaches "garbage" that contradict the national norm, then the student will never pass the certification exam, thus invalidating the school where he studied.

 

[civ_king]

I'll watch it now - I was out last night and forgot to record it.

Something like 98% of all primary schools in the republic of Ireland have a religious ethos - I think we need a good dose of secularism.

If schools have more applicants than spaces they can discriminate on religious grounds - some parents baptize their children to avoid this.

It has also led to the ghettoizing of some schools where all children of non catholic parents end up in one school - those parents tending to be immigrants.

School Year
2009/10
School Ethos No of Schools % of Total

CATHOLIC 2,888 91.25%
CHURCH OF Ireland 181 5.72%
MULTI DENOMINATIONAL 69 2.18%
PRESBYTERIAN 14 0.44%
INTER DENOMINATIONAL 8 0.25%
MUSLIM 2 0.06%
METHODIST 1 0.03%
JEWISH 1 0.03%
Quaker 1 0.03%
Total 3,165

RTE article
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0803/education_primary.html
DOE PDF:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0803/education.pdf

Edit: the report and numbers came from the department of education where they are trying to work with the Catholic church to break their monopoly in certain areas.

You people really need to secularize

It's worth noting that a large number of these are Catholic schools, which are traditionally partially funded by the Roman Catholic Church and generally stick to the usual curriculum outside of the areas of religious and social education. They're even tighter in Scotland, as they are fully publicly funded- a peculiarity which results from the Scottish education system being originally parochial- so they aren't allowed to stray one inch from the syllabus outside of religious and social education, and have less ability to discriminate as to attendance (we had a small number of Protestants, Muslims and Sikhs in attendance, for example, each for their own reasons).

Anyway, I'm sort of torn. I don't think a Catholic education did me any good, but I don't think it did me much harm, either, so I tend to think that they should either be fully private, or, as in Scotland, publicly funded but tightly controlled. I'm not sure that the latter is an absolute right, but it seems a decent enough compromise for those who wish to give their kids a vaguely religious education but who cannot afford private schools (or are not so hardcore about their faith as to be interested anyway).


Because it is no longer socially acceptable to openly discriminate against Catholics and Jews.

GOD DAMN IT! THIS IS AMERICA THE PLACE WHERE YOU COULD TORTURE PEOPLE FOR BEING DEVIL WORSHIPPERS LIKE CATHOLICS AND JEWS AND MUSLIMS ARE YOU SERIOUSLY TELLING ME THAT YOU CAN'T TORTURE HORRIBLE PEOPLE? THE ESTEEMED MARTIN LUTHER THE MAN WHO SAID THE JEWS AND THEIR SATANIC TORAH COULD GO LIVE IN HELL AFTER WE SMASHED THEIR THEIR SHOPS UP AND MAKE THEM WEAR YELLOW STARS

Moderator Action: Whether you mean it or not, don't make that sort of comment.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[bombshoo]

In my view, all school should be regulated according to state rules regardless if they receive fundings or not.
This is to ensure a baseline of quality and make certifications and degrees comparable between schools.
If a faith school teaches "garbage" that contradict the national norm, then the student will never pass the certification exam, thus invalidating the school where he studied.

I definitely understand where your coming from, but I guess a large part of my view comes from being in the USA where a complete regulation on religious schools would be virtually impossible so regulation by providing some public funding seems best.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

1) Should they be publicly funded?
Make funds available with caveats.

2) Should they be regulated by the government?
Full regulation if they accept funding, basic regulation without

3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?
If they accept funding, or want real colleges to accept their students.

4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?
Whatever.

5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?
Aw hell no! Trying to stop it would pretty much destroy society so it's a necessary evil.

 

[wolfigor]

I definitely understand where your coming from, but I guess a large part of my view comes from being in the USA where a complete regulation on religious schools would be virtually impossible

I admit ignorance on the topic (regulation of private/religious schools in USA), why would it be virtually impossible in USA?
In EU if a private school wants their degrees to have any value their students must pass the same exams as students of public schools.

so regulation by providing some public funding seems best.

Given what you wrote previously, then I understand that it would be much easier (and less controversial) to impose control via funding.

 

[Trev]

In Australia we have many private schools, a large proportion are religiously based. The government funds a portion of their cost, but tuition fees for students are still considerable for the cheaper schools ranging to very high for the top tier of schools. As the final year of school is exam tested statewide, they need to educate to a reasonably standard curriculum, but within that they provide studies of religion, some teach ID as the truth, but do also teach sufficient info about evolution so their students can pass the final exams. It works well the system overall, pressures gov't schools into improving their standards so they do not lose so many student to the private sector. If there was no government support to private schooling then the pressure to improve the gov't sector would not be so high.
Generally 30 - 40% of students overall attend private schools of varying types.

 

[Lillefix]

For those of us who can't watcht the video in the op, here's the youtube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulX8nZjeCXE

I'm going to watch it soon, I just need to buy some popcorn first...

 

[Winner]

Did anyone catch the Richard Dawkins documentary on More4 last night about faith schools? It was a very good and very worrying hour.

For those of you outside the UK, some background. In the UK about a third of public schools are so called "faith schools". They receive funding from the government and get to include an unregulated faith element in the syllabus... Muslim schools teach about Islam, Jewish schools about Judaism etc. They also get to set faith based criteria for parents who want there children to go to the school.

New Dawkins documentary? I must get my hands on it ASAP.

What does OT think of these? There are a few questions at work here:

1) Should they be publicly funded?
2) Should they be regulated by the government?
3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?
4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?
5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?

1) No, never.
2) No, they should be banned.
3) No, they should not exist.
4) No religious instruction should be allowed in schools.
5) Touché. Of course it isn't; it's a form of child abuse by means of indoctrination and brainwashing, currently sanctioned by many governments all around the world in stark contrast with their proclaimed respect for human rights and dignity.

One day, people will look at this era and wonder how could something so nasty be considered acceptable - pretty much in the same way we're looking at the mediaeval superstition today.

 

[GoodGame]

:

1) Should they be publicly funded?
2) Should they be regulated by the government?
3) Should they have to follow the national syllabus?
4) Should thy be allowed to focus R.E. solely on one religion?
5) Is it moral to be teaching religion as truth to children?

The American lens would be NO!!!!!!!! to #1.

2). YES! Of course that can be a sensitive issue, but by and large separation of state and private education have worked well in the USA since the beginning (the first schools were religious, weren't they?).

3). Somewhat. The government should have criteria for what a "school" consists of, including standards that it must meet.

4). I think a school does more than just teach religion. That would include allowing a comparative religion class, though to be honest I can't recall if the catholic school that I went to had one.

5). Maybe. It really depends upon the religion and its practice (/poop coming out of my mouth)

 

[W|M]

In Brazil, religious indoctrination is only allowed in private schools.

EDIT: X-Post.