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Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by WarKirby, Jul 20, 2009.

  1. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Since they're already popping up in the bug thread, I'd best make a new one here.

    This thread is for discussing parts of FF 0.51 that are working as intended, but seem unbalanced. a unit is too strong. barbarian ducks are crushing you into the ground. A spell is overpowered. etc.

    Lots of new features and potential for imbalances. post away!
     
  2. Breez

    Breez King

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    I like the commanders, very neat.

    By Turn 155 I have 4 already (Difficulty:warlord, Speed:quick, Size:small) I have been at war for 100 turns. I have only taken 2 cities (5 total now), but have enough fights to get 4 units to level 12-14 range. Some steady combat but not TONS of combat.

    Just seems the commanders are popping rather fast. My SoD is a [commander, 3 heros, 1 champion] and [commander, 3 archers]. The other 2 generals are simply defending cities from attackers that never show up. If this keeps up I will have a commander in every city.

    Should they pop that often?
     
  3. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I think your circumstances are a bit skewed here, so "already" doesn't seem the right world to use. You're playing on quick speed, and small mapsizes tend to cause earlier conflicts.

    I reckon you'd see far less if, for instance, you played Normal speed on a Large Map.
    Who are you playing as ?
     
  4. Pohlmann

    Pohlmann Warlord

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    i started my 1st game this morning and realized this tech trade at writing change

    on turn 150 normal speed 4 civs have smelting and all previous techs ready.

    i beelined (agri, calendar, animal, bronze, fishing, hunting before) orders from heaven and before i had my religion ready i had smelting and 2 or 3 more 1500 :science:
    technologies.

    no wars at all between the other civs. everybody loves each other it seems.

    from all isolated fighting for survival to best friends erebus fantasy land is a bit harsh.
     
  5. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Just wait til they come knocking on your door with mythril champions :)
    Until 0.51, I had never, EVER seen the AI reach mythril working.

    Why are there no wars, I wonder. Do you have a lot of peaceful civs in the game? Spread one religion around a lot ?
     
  6. Pohlmann

    Pohlmann Warlord

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    kolshevan, kandros fir and deirdra

    no peacemonger among them but no wars at all

    ill see if i can get the game to go on without more crashes
     
  7. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    I always saw Deirdra as a peacemonger... isn't she?
     
  8. Breez

    Breez King

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    I know those things CAN affect stuff, but wasn't sure they actually mattered when it comes to this.

    Playing Austin.
     
  9. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I don't believe gamespeed affects the required xp for generals, but it lets you research techs faster, build units faster. And your enemy builds units faster too. So big wars happen earlier.And thusly, more generals come earlier
     
  10. Treason

    Treason Chieftain

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    Love the changes, so far. I've actually seen an AI use their freaking mages, for once, instead of spamming axemen/swordsmen and marching on me.

    While I remembered that Tech trading came earlier, now, it was still something of a shock to the system to see how rapidly the AI was teching, in comparison to before...Which I actually kinda like. My last game as the Amurites, Marathon, Terra map, Monarch, I was researching Machinery and Taxation, while everyone else was still stuck on Trade and Way of the Wise/Wicked. Nice to see the AI being able to out Tech me, for once.
     
  11. Gedwyn

    Gedwyn Warlord

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    Not a bug, or a balance thing...just a small gripe.

    Foxford! Great idea (would love to see more events like this from locations)...

    Having the Adventurer promotion blocks the ability to save Foxford.

    My scout popped a dungeon, got the Adventure! Explosions! Yada yada yada result, and therefore had the Adventurer, Courage and Valor promotions. 2 turns later he stumbles into Foxford, and can't save it...bleh.
     
  12. vivictius

    vivictius Prince

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    Another point with foxford, though it might be a bug, currently barbarians can pop it.
     
  13. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Location! Location!
  14. Machiosabre

    Machiosabre Chieftain

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    i got about 3 commanders in a short war and some barbarian killing on prince normal speed.
    I think it could be toned down a little especially since they can all recruit and still lead, though they are great fun to use.
     
  15. Grimz101

    Grimz101 King

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    First of all.. love the commanders especially since my first game was with the bannor..
    secondly did you modify the way in which AI sue for peace because they seemed much more willing to give up techs fors peace, could be my imagination though.
     
  16. rocklikeafool

    rocklikeafool Warmaster

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    So, I don't think it's been mentioned, but it has, whatever. GP! There's a hell of a lot of em. The only GP that I don't think there's too much of is Great Commanders. However, the rest of em, it's crazy. Imho, GPs should spawn less often (say 25-50% less often) to signify that these are GP. It's sposed to be an event the player appreciates. I've prolly had over 10 GPs myself (not exaggerating, btw) and not even to turn 500. It just seems overpowered to me. After awhile I got be like this ---> :deadhorse:
     
  17. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    It's not like there's a shortage of things to do with them, though

    10 by turn 500 is one every 50 turns.
    An empire can be conquered in 10 turns. Try it with some uber promoted knights. It's possible to go so fast that you don't even need to defend cities you capture. You can keep taking more and more that the enemy can't possibly mount a counterattack. Complete domination. a 5 movement unit with Blitz(and usually the 4 Drill promos that come with it) can conquer a city, or possibly two, per turn. Multiply that by 4, add heroes like valin/rosier/kithra. I've seen continent spanning empires crumble in under 10turns

    Most of the upper level techs can be reseached in 10-30 turn, if you take them on at the right time,


    500 turns is a LONG way into the game on normal speed.In the past, most games I've played pass the point of "my victory is inevitable" before turn 400. At times, I've had Commune with Nature and Omniscience before that point.

    Try timing how long it takes for a turn to pass, at that point in the game. multiply it by 50. Then consider if that's really too often to get great people.

    f you prefer, you can think of turns as years. Is a great person every half century really too often? That's more or less an entire generation
     
  18. rocklikeafool

    rocklikeafool Warmaster

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    Well, I guess, tbh, it just takes some getting used to. GPs didn't pop up as quick previously, at least for the mods I played.

    Edit: I'm just being picky, don't mind me, btw.
     
  19. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Why are doomsayers so pitifully weak?

    In my current scion game, I was planning on makin an excellent homegrown hero. I actually got one measly legate to lv26 thanks to careful nurturing. When my enemy start throwing champions and archers around, and he finds himself outmatched even with all those promotions, I devoted precious research to going for Priesthood to get doomsayers, only to find that upgrading him gives NO extra power at all. Despite having 5/6 strength, doomsayers have some sort of hidden effect that gives them -2 strength outside your borders. So now I'm stuck with a lv26 paperweight who can't kill anything with his pitiful 3 attack strength.

    Compared to Tsunami, Bless, and Ring of Flames, the Wierd Wrack spell is pretty poor for divine magic, and it seems overall that the Doomsayers are about the worst priest unit of any religion.

    Why have a unit that captures enemies if it's too weak to actually win battles?
    With Combat V, Drill I-IV, Shock, Blitz, cover, city raider, and almost every other promotion you can think of, my superpowered doomsayer gets an average of 60% odds against a normal archer.
     
  20. rocklikeafool

    rocklikeafool Warmaster

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    Ya know, on the topic of the Scions, they have a potential to be a powerful civ (much like Calabim or Clan, provided you manage them well, of course). That is, provided stupid things like the above post by WarKirby doesn't hold them back. I mean nerfs are sometimes good. But a unit like a doomsayer being nerfed -2att/def? I just see that as a bad thing. It's a damn Priesthood unit. Those units can help one dominate the midgame, provided one uses them well. (Everyone knows how easy it is to take a seaside city with decent melee units and a cultist or 2.)

    I also think weird wrack needs more power, btw. I looked at it in the pedia, thought, "Huh, that sounds cool." And NOT that cool. Needs more power, as I said. Otherwise, why bother?

    Maybe someone should explain the point of this, if there is one beyond "Oh, they left the Scion lands -- nerf" :cringe:...

    Edit: I'd remove the -2 nerf myself, if there weren't already a few issues with the Scions. As it is, I'll prolly play them a lil for playtester purposes. Right now, it's just like, an Undead civ with cool concepts. Nice to play around with, but not any awe factor. Maybe that's what you were going for, Idk. It's disappointing me, however.
    That is the end of my rant. ;)
     

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