Fall Further - Download and Current Changelog

[MagisterCultuum]

I got the same error as MaxAstro.


I noticed that Destroy Undead in FF is still quite weak. Kael changed FfH's Destroy Undead spell now do an average of 30% damage with no damage cap (as I'd been arguing to remove the cap since it was first added), but FF still does 20% average damage with a 50% cap. Is this intentional, for the sake of the Scions?

Edit: a tried downloading again, this time from the second post instead of the one on the previous page, and it worked fine.

 

[Vehem]

404 not found on the download link.

Love most of the changes, though.

Looks like some people are slightly faster than my upstream - it was still uploading Should be available now.

I got the same error as MaxAstro.


I noticed that Destroy Undead in FF is still quite weak. Kael changed FfH's Destroy Undead spell now do an average of 30% damage with no damage cap (as I'd been arguing to remove the cap since it was first added), but FF still does 20% average damage with a 50% cap. Is this intentional, for the sake of the Scions?

Hasn't been discussed as of yet, but there is an issue with the Scions. The immediate option that springs to mind is a "Banishment" spell - fairly damaging to Demons and Undead, potentially lethal to any summons.

 

[Tarquelne]

The immediate option that springs to mind is a "Banishment" spell - fairly damaging to Demons and Undead, potentially lethal to any summons.

I'd like a Banishment spell.

Specifically with regard to Destroy Undead, I think it'd be fun to allow it the full damage against Undead, but allow Scions some sort of protection. A Ritual, perhaps. Probably fairly easy to maintain and greatly reducing the spell's damage. Something, anyway, to make protecting against the full effect interesting.

 

[Vehem]

I'd like a Banishment spell.

Specifically with regard to Destroy Undead, I think it'd be fun to allow it the full damage against Undead, but allow Scions some sort of protection. A Ritual, perhaps. Probably fairly easy to maintain and greatly reducing the spell's damage. Something, anyway, to make protecting against the full effect interesting.

Another option is having the spell "return the undead to the grave". In the case of Scions, that would involve bumping them back to the capital at 50% if it would normally cause enough damage to kill. The effect wouldn't work on units in cities however, they would just be capped at 50% damage.

Haven't put much thought into it yet though - there are bound to be issues or neater solutions...

EDIT: Option 3 - take a leaf from "Turn Undead" (D&D). Have the spell be a stunning/immobilizing spell most of the time (Turn) but able to destroy weaker (injured) units as with the Cleric ability. Basically an all-or-nothing in terms of damage - it'll either be powerful enough to turn an injured skeleton into dust, or it will simply stun it temporarily.

Stack of 3 Principes - 1 at full strength, 1 slightly wounded, 1 near death. Destroy(Turn) Undead is cast.

The first resists (chance modified by the relative strength of the caster and the target).
The second fails to resist, so is stunned (immobilized).
The third is weak due to being damaged already and the Turn roll is sufficient to destroy him outright.

In game terms, it becomes a fairly effective "assassin" spell, combined with something akin to Blinding Light. Given that the undead are immune to Marksman, this would make a nice alternative...

 

[DavidB1111]

Hmm, changes look good. Also, going into a custom game also allows you to adjust the options. Really, to be honest, this is the only way anyone should play mods...

What does this mean.

46. GameOptions fixed - turns out that some are hardcoded from the EXE. (*grumble*)

Also, are you going to move over some of the FFH changes, such as Military State being fixed, how military cost works I don't know, but it's broken in FF. He changed it to free units.

Oh, and crazed/enraged being removed from mutate? Because let's be honest, ever since he "fixed" enraged, it became about as useful as a DVD rewinder.

 

[Methuselah]

I'd like a Banishment spell.

Specifically with regard to Destroy Undead, I think it'd be fun to allow it the full damage against Undead, but allow Scions some sort of protection. A Ritual, perhaps. Probably fairly easy to maintain and greatly reducing the spell's damage. Something, anyway, to make protecting against the full effect interesting.

Scions.

Always must be overpowered. Always.

 

[Vehem]

Hmm, changes look good. Also, going into a custom game also allows you to adjust the options. Really, to be honest, this is the only way anyone should play mods...

Some of the options aren't visible from the Custom Game menu - they can get "stuck on" when the options are reordered (if Option 5 was on, but after reordering, Option 5 is a hidden option - it's always on...).

 

[xienwolf]

Hmm, changes look good. Also, going into a custom game also allows you to adjust the options. Really, to be honest, this is the only way anyone should play mods...

What does this mean.

46. GameOptions fixed - turns out that some are hardcoded from the EXE. (*grumble*)

Also, are you going to move over some of the FFH changes, such as Military State being fixed, how military cost works I don't know, but it's broken in FF. He changed it to free units.

Oh, and crazed/enraged being removed from mutate? Because let's be honest, ever since he "fixed" enraged, it became about as useful as a DVD rewinder.

We had re-organized the gameoptions so that we could have CivSelector be at the top of the list and immediately visible, and to group the 3 "No Barbarian" type options together. But doing this changed the numbering/order of the Firaxis options, and it turns out that some of them are checked inside the EXE by integer location instead of enumerator (ie - you aren't allowed to move them). This was showing up and being confusing with New Random Seed on Reload, but it was when someone found that No Demonic Horde also activated the Unrestricted Leaders option that we finally caught on.

Putting all of Firaxis' gameoptions back where they were fixed both problems, and all references to any options that we have access to (python, XML and DLL) wouldn't have cared. So the only remaining possibility is EXE hardcoding, meaning we are a bit mroe limited in what we can do with mod layout.



Personally, I think that our Crazed/Enraged is considerably better, and not nearly as potentially "Bad" as the original setup that Kael had. They cost you no maintenance, they WILL make attacks of opportunity, and RARELY will wander aimlessly if no targets are close. Plus only units who CAN attack will act enraged, and if there aren't any enemies possible on your continent (all land owned by you), your units will not act enraged either.

Oh, and the fix for military state did go in with FF at some point, not sure precisely when.

 

[DavidB1111]

Ah, well, fair enough, as for military state, are you sure, because I still see free military units last time I checked...
All I know, is that Loyaty used to make them normal essentially.
Now it does nothing.

 

[Vehem]

Ah, well, fair enough, as for military state, are you sure, because I still see free military units last time I checked...
All I know, is that Loyaty used to make them normal essentially.
Now it does nothing.

The Military State "fix" Xienwolf mentioned was a while back, but it's not the one you meant. The change to how it works is probably going to make the jump across though...

(EDIT: Or maybe I've just misunderstood myself??)

Loyalty can be used in FF to keep an Enraged unit under control. If you cast it and keep the adept with the Enraged unit, it will be perfectly happy. If the adept leaves, it gets grumpy again...

 

[xienwolf]

Just checked and in Patch F we do offer FreeUnits instead of FreeMilitaryUnits. So it is good NOW, if it wasn't in E

And yes, our loyalty is quite worthwhile. And you really should try Freelancer

 

[Valkrionn]

Scions.

Always must be overpowered. Always.

I don't really see it being overpowered so long as no other races have the same kind of damaging spell or promotion... I'd be perfectly happy with the Infernals being able to block the dmg as well. Or reintroduce the anti-orc, elf, dwarf, and human promotions.

 

[Methuselah]

I'd be perfectly happy with the Infernals being able to block the dmg as well.

Fair enough, just making sure other civs were represented.

If the Scions get a block to banishing/whatever, the Infernal should have the same option.

 

[Valkrionn]

Fair enough, just making sure other civs were represented.

If the Scions get a block to banishing/whatever, the Infernal should have the same option.

I'd actually prefer to have the racial promotions back, but ignoring that I agree. Destroy Undead is incredibly effective vs the Scions right now, but it's just as effective against the Infernals. Any changes for the one should affect the other.

 

[Methuselah]

I'd actually prefer to have the racial promotions back, but ignoring that I agree. Destroy Undead is incredibly effective vs the Scions right now, but it's just as effective against the Infernals. Any changes for the one should affect the other.

Racial promotions would be nice too, specialise your army depending on the opponent.

 

[Tarquelne]

I'd actually prefer to have the racial promotions back, but ignoring that I agree. Destroy Undead is incredibly effective vs the Scions right now, but it's just as effective against the Infernals.

Is it? Looking at the last version of FFH2's Destroy Undead that I have - I haven't been keeping up with the patches - it only hits Undead units. (Like the FF version.)

So that's every Scion unit with the exception of Korrina the Red, any Centeni you might have left lying around, and the occasional merc or whatever. Isn't that a vastly higher proportion of Undead than the Infernals? (It's been a long time since I've seen a significant Infernal presence in a game so I really don't know.)

Scions.

Always must be overpowered. Always.

I guess I should have explained my "Specifically with regard to Destroy Undead" comment:

My thought was the existence of a level 2 spell that easily wipes out whole stacks of Scion units is something the Scions should legitimately have some sort of defense against. According to my copies of the spell its effect isn't even resistible.

Is there a problem with that? Your comment didn't explain enough for me to understand your objection.

If you thought that I meant the Scions and only the Scions should have a defense against the Banishment spell, I'll just call your attention to the presence of the phrase "Specifically with regard to Destroy Undead", and the absence of the phrase "and only the Scions".

 

[Valkrionn]

As far as I'm aware the Infernals are mostly Undead, but I might have to play them again and see.

 

[Methuselah]

My thought was the existence of a level 2 spell that easily wipes out whole stacks of Scion units is something the Scions should legitimately have some sort of defense against. According to my copies of the spell its effect isn't even resistible.

Scions are undead. The spell should affect them as much as it affects other undead without them being able to resist. If that means having to deal with an opponent who's using magic, go cut off their life nodes. Rather that then they gain another immunity.

 

[Tarquelne]

As far as I'm aware the Infernals are mostly Undead, but I might have to play them again and see.

Hmm... Infernals get "Demon" as their racial promotion. But I spotted only 2 Infernal units in unitinfos with Demon and I've no idea how numerous their Undead auxiliaries generally are.

All I remember from last time they were in a game is too many Balors.

Scions are undead. The spell should affect them as much as it affects other undead without them being able to resist. If that means having to deal with an opponent who's using magic, go cut off their life nodes. Rather that then they gain another immunity.

Ah. If *equality* is so important I'll just give the Scions a 2nd level spell that kills all living units.

We'd have epic siege engine battles!
Assuming catapults can pillage mana nodes, of course.

("Greatly reduced", btw, doesn't necessarily mean "immunity.")

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... Infernals get "Demon" as their racial promotion. But I spotted only 2 Infernal units in unitinfos with Demon and I've no idea how numerous their Undead auxiliaries generally are.

All I remember from last time they were in a game is too many Balors.



Ah. If *equality* is so important I'll just give the Scions a 2nd level spell that kills all living units.

We can have epic siege engine battles.
Assuming catapults can pillage mana nodes, of course.

("Greatly reduced", btw, doesn't *necessarily* mean "immunity.")

Or better yet, give the Scions a uu catapult that launches diseased corpses, poisoning anyone it attackes...

Actually, a replacement for Destroy Undead, like with the Body line, would be kind of interesting.. Maybe Absorb Vitality? Does a small amount of dmg, much smaller than Destroy Undead, but heals the undead for however much it dmgs the living? Would make life more useful than just +3 happy with the Cathedral.