Fall Further RLD

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by MaxAstro, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. MaxAstro

    MaxAstro Spiral Knight

    Dec 18, 2007
    Well, here it is, finally. The personal mod I've been working on for ages now, jokingly titled Ridiculously Long Drop, is finally in a form I am willing to post. While I get set up to upload it, here is the changelog as a teaser:

    Civilization and leader changes:
    -The Arena is now a Doviello UB instead of a Balseraph UB. It is slightly cheaper, because it is not required to build any Doviello units, just for arena battles and +1 happy from nationhood.
    -Charadon gains the Charismatic trait, to hopefully help him compete with Mahala for usefulness.
    -The Doviello have a new axeman replacement, the Warmonger, that doesn't require a training yard-equivalent and has +10% vs melee units and +10% city attack, but can only use Bronze weapons.
    -All Doviello melee units, including Lucian, will steal weapon promotions from units they defeat (even weapons they normally can't use).
    -The Sidar have a new scout replacement, the Trackless. It is invisible and can explore rival territory, but recieves no bonus against animal units and can't see invisible animals.
    -The Kuriotate Airship from .34 is added to this version.
    -The Scions of Patria start with Nationhood instead of Religion, as Religion is a pretty useless civic for them.
    -The Cualli have Blood and Sacrifice as a default civic, to save a turn of anarchy each game.
    -Hianthrough gains the Expansive trait (Spritual Agnostic Defender feels a bit weak as a trait combo).
    -Daracaat gains the Defender trait back, as it fits the Archos thematically and Agressive Barbarian feels VERY weak as a trait combo.
    -Varn Gosam's permanent trait is Financial instead of Creative (otherwise why you even use Adaptive? Financial hurts too much to lose).
    -The Amurites have a new Alchemy Lab replacement, the School of Govannon. It requires Arcane Lore and Govannon must be created before it can be built. It costs 160 hammers, and enables the new Amurite Champion replacement, the Spellblade. It also grants free spell promotions of all available mana types to units built in the city (i.e., if you have at least 1 fire mana, all units built in the city will have Fire I; the School will never grant higher level magic).
    -The Amurites have a new Axeman replacement, the Sword Dancer. It is unable to use Mithril weapons and has no bonus to city attack, but starts with Chaos I and Shadow I, allowing it to cast Dance of Blades and Blur.
    -The Amurites have a new Champion replacement, the Spellblade. It is unable to use Mithril weapons, is strength 5 instead of 6, and has +10% vs melee units instead of +25%. It requires Arcane Lore instead of Iron Working and the School of Govannon instead of a Training Yard, and starts with Channeling II, allowing it to gain the second level of magic types taught by the School of Govannon. It is also allowed to gain free XP from it's Channeling II promotion.

    Unit changes:

    -Elephants are strength 7 instead of strength 8, to remove the odd loss of strength upgrading to a War Elephant causes.
    -Polar Bears are no longer native to anything but snow, to avoid the frequent "Lost" moments where they would spawn in forest or jungle.
    -Sea Serpents are strength 5 instead of 6, but move 3 instead of 1.
    -Giant Tortoises have 1 cargo capacity.
    -New "Cave Spider" unit: Stronger, non-invisible giant spider with a higher chance to spawn Baby Spiders. Cave Spiders will never spawn normally, they are only created by the "Spider Mine" event. This is mainly to make the Spider Mine event actually potentially harmfull, as the spider will shut down production in the mine.
    -Baron Duin Halfmorn is a Beast unit instead of an Animal unit and starts with Subdue Animal. Greater Werewolves are also Beast units.
    -All Animal units except Werewolves have the Animal race, which slows their healing rate but allows them to heal while moving. It also allows them to promote to Cannabalize. AI controlled animals WILL promote to Cannabalize; expect to have a fair bit more trouble with animals once they get some food in their bellies.
    -Swordsmen have +10% vs melee units instead of +10% city attack, to differentiate them from Axemen.
    -Battlemasters have their +50% boost on snow in addition to tundra but can only use Bronze weapons.
    -Succubus have Charm Person again.
    -Lizardmen have the Lizardman race (I call these two my "duh" changes. :) ).
    -Lightbringers have better results from tribal villiages, both for thematic reasons and so the Malakim don't start without a unit with this ability.
    -Blowpipes lose the Poisoned Weapons promotion and 1 first strike, are strength 6 instead of 5, gain +1 poison combat, and cannot use metal weapons. Basically, compared to Longbowmen, Blowpipes are stronger right off the bat and stronger on the attack, but not quite as strong as Longbowmen with Iron Weapons.
    -Firebows free promotions changed to Fire II, Spell Extension I, and Flaming Arrows. They can promote to Spell Extension II, and are no longer able to use weapons.
    -Wizards gain the ability to cast a unique spell, Channel, allowing them to act as a living Spellstaff for other units on the tile.
    -All Warrior-type units except the Tribesman lose their city defense bonus; Tribesman city defense bonus reduced to 15%. This is because Palaces now provide city defense (explained in more detail below) and I want to encourage using Archers to defend cities.
    -Orthus now starts with March and Crazed. Seriously, this guy will rip you a new one if he shows up unexpectedly with 80-some XP at your borders. Beware, and remember if he spawns near you that the best defense is a good offense. In good news, his spawn turn is delayed until 90 on normal.

    Promotion changes:

    -New promotion: First Aid. Available at Combat II to non-mechanical, non-animal units and gives +10% healing rate in friendly and neutral territory. A lifesaver for recon units and decently useful in combo with March.
    -Subdue Animal and Subdue Beast are available to Naval units, to allow easier capturing of Sea Serpents, Giant Tortoises, and the Leviathan.
    -The Lizardman race gives +10% strength in Jungle and +15% strength in Deep Jungle, instead of only +25% strength in Deep Jungle. This makes barbarian Lizardmen a bit stronger, and feels a bit less broken for the Mazatl and Cualli.
    -The AI ~will~ promote to March, whenever given the chance. This is because I feel March is an incredibly useful promotion for keeping units alive.
    -New Promotion: Deep Shaper. Available to Lizardman workers at Sanitation and Skilled 2, this promotion gives the worker a couple spells that allow the manual creation of Jungle on Grassland and Wetland tiles. Can be used anywhere, but using it in rival territory is an act of war.

    Spell changes:

    -Water 2 now enables Summon Waverider in addition to Water Walking; Waveriders are permanent move 2, strength 4 boats that cannot attack and have a cargo capacity of 2. They are unable to gain levels or promote.
    -Feast causes -1 alignment instead of -3 and is no longer Calabim-only, but can only be used by Evil civs (No more unthematic Feasting for the Order Calabim, sorry).
    -The Deep Shaper promotion allows two spells, Shape Jungle and Deepen Forest. Shape Jungle takes 4 turns to cast, costs 20 gold, and will create a Jungle on any featureless Grassland or Wetland tile. Deepen Forest takes 2 turns to cast, has no gold cost, and will turn any Forest or Ancient Forest on a Grassland or Wetland tile into a Jungle.
    -Slave Drive, the Cualli world spell, now provides a free Lizardman Laborourer in every city in addition to it's previous effect. A very viable strategy with the Cualli now is to save up 3-4 settlers, then settle multiple cities and cast the world spell in the same turn, since Slave Drive's effect is much more pronounced on small cities.
    -Haste, Dance of Blades, Blur, and Shadowwalk function on a new mechanic. The promotions granted by these spells will persist so long as any unit in the tile is able to cast the spell. This ~greatly~ reduces micromanagement, especially for haste (Cast Haste on a stack, right click on a distant destination, and Haste will last until they get there).
    -The magic tech tree was shuffled around a bit. Knowledge of the Ether know leads directly to Sorcery, which is 200 beakers cheaper than it used to be. Sorcery leads to the 4 "node" techs, which are each 200 beakers more expensive. Any of the 4 "node" techs leads to Arcane Lore, which also got a 200 beaker price cut. Also, Strength of Will's science flavor was boosted so Great Sages will prefer it over Pass Through the Ether.

    Building changes:

    -The Theatre is now priced a bit more reasonably at 180 hammers instead of 250.
    -The City of A Thousand Slums is enabled by Taxation instead of Engineering.
    -All Palaces grant a city defense bonus to the capital. Most grant a flat 25% defense bonus. The exceptions are: The Chizlev palace gives only +20% defense in that city, but also gives +10% defense in all other cities; The Illian palace gives +40% defense in the capital, but all other Illian cities suffer -10% defense; The Archos palace gives +30% defense; The Infernal palace gives +60% defense in the capital, -25% bombardment damage in the capital, and +10% defense in all other cities; and the Mercurian palace gives +50% defense in the capital, -50% bombardment damage in the capital, and +20% defense in all other cities.
    -Also in palace news, the Archos palace gives +1 happy from deer (but not Arctic Deer), and the Mazatl have Creation instead of Mind mana.
    -The Scion Spirit Mill also provides +1 happy from deer.
    -New building: Castle. Requires Walls and Military Strategy, costs 200 hammers. All-purpose defensive building that gives the following benefits: +25% city defense, +25% bombard defense, -20% war weariness, -15% maintainence, +10% military production, and allows 1 Engineer. Double production speed for Defender leaders.
    -Aqueducts give +1 food from river tiles, which does a lot to justify their hammer cost.

    General changes:

    -New resource: Stone. Production resource connectable with a quarry. The following buildings build faster with Stone: Aqueducts, Castle, Courthouse, Governer's Manor, Dungeon, Monument, Shrine to Kylorin, Walls and Palisade.
    -Marble is now a luxury resource and is revealed by Masonry.
    -The Remnants of Patria provide Stone.
    -The Guardian of Pristin Pass provides Law mana (it starts with a road under it so it can be hooked up). KNOWN BUG: The Guardian is currently spawning on Hills tiles instead of Peak tiles. I can't figure out why; if anyone can, that would be much apreciated.
    -The Yggdrasil gets +2 food from Tracking instead of Way of the Forests, so that Agnostic civs can get a bit more out of it.
    -The Letum Frigus provides Ice mana, grants +15% tile defense, and will spawn barbarian Beastmen (there is no way to stop it's spawning).
    -Most "negative" improvements give +1 unhappy in nearby cities. These include: Barrows, Bear Dens, Graveyards, Hellfire, Lion Dens, Ruins, Hill Giant Steadings, and the Broken Sepulcherr.
    -The tile yields of worked Ivory and Whales were improved a bit to make these resources a bit more desirable in a city's fat cross.
    -Oasis tiles no longer slow movement or block vision.
    -Industrious no longer gives +50% wonder production; instead it gives +1 hammer on tiles with 3 or more hammers.
    -Unique features now have a base spawn rate of 60%; however this rate is hugely effected by map size.
    -New map size: Immense. This map size is quite incredibly large, and is not for the faint of heart (or those with insufficient memory). My computer can't even quite handle Immense maps, so they have no been extensively tested.
    -The Goblin Wastes, Library Fire, and Sailor's Dirge events have been disabled for now because I feel they add nothing to the game and/or are unfair. The Dirge specifically will be reenabled in the next version with the Sailing tech prereq; Goblin Wastes and Library fire will require extensive reworking before I am willing to reenable them.
    -The Sickness event will only trigger in unhealthy cities (mostly to prevent it from happening early game in your capital).
    -Dedicating a monument to Sucellus gives +1 happy in addition to +1 health.
    -Dedicating a monument to Oghma gives +3 research instead of +2.

    Well, there you have it. I'll edit this post with the actual mod as soon as I can. All forms of feedback, especially balance-related, are welcome.

    EDIT: Here is the download link. http://files.filefront.com/Custom+Patchrar/;12232989;/fileinfo.html

    Installation instructions: You need to have FfH 033, and the latest versions of Fall Further and Scions of Patria. Then, make a backup copy of your Scions of Patria folder, and overwrite the Assets folder with the one in the patch.

    A note on the changelog included with the patch: It's as much my notes as anything else, and may not be entirely comprehensible. Also please note that ANY line in the changelog with a + in front of it is not actually in the mod. It is either a planned future feature, or a feature from an older version that I have no reimplemented yet.
  2. MaxAstro

    MaxAstro Spiral Knight

    Dec 18, 2007
    BETA changelog for next version (Note that these changes only reflect what has been changed compared to my current changes; it if doesn't show up here, assume it's unchanged from last version):

    1. Updated to FF 043.
    2. Aqueduct changed to FF 043 version.
    3. Most Axeman and Swordsmen-type units gain +25% vs Warriors, as per FF 043
    4. Extended magic system: Each sphere will now have 4 spells instead of 3. The new spell will be available to Mages as a "2.5" spell level. All of the 2.5 level promotions will require the node tech associated with that mana type, making promoting past the current Mage level in any sphere impossible without the proper node tech.
    5. New spell: Summon Nimbus (Air 2.5) - Creates a permanent but fragile flying transport.
    6. New spell: Cripple (Body AND Corpus 2.5) - Gives -1 attack strength and +1 movement cost to nearby enemy units. Can be resisted.
    7. New spell: Winds of Fate (Chaos 2.5) - Randomly grants either the "Lucky" or "Unlucky" promotion to all units in the caster's stack. Lucky gives +1 strength, +2 first strike chances, and +20% withdraw; Unlucky gives -1 strength, -10% healing rate, -20% spell resist. Both have a 10% chance to wear off. Spell does not affect units that are already Lucky or Unlucky.
    8. New spell: Bounty (Creation 2.5) - Creates a Mushrooms improvement on any unimproved, non-city tile.
    9. New spell: Bind Corpse (Death 2.5) - Acts like Dominate but only affects Undead units. Promotion is not lost if the spell fails.
    10. New spell: Summon Displacer (Dimensional 2.5) - Permanent summon that uncontrollably "blinks" in and out of normal reality (NOTE: If someone would like to be kind enough to make me a model for this based on the AD&D 3rd Ed version, I would be eternally grateful).
    11. New spell: Shape Earth (Earth 2.5) - Turns a flatlands tile into a hills tile or vice versa. Only affects featureless, unimproved tiles.
    12. New spell: Animate Weapon (Enchantment 2.5) - Fireball-like attack spell. The strength of animated weapon is based on the strongest friendly melee unit on the tile.
    13. New spell: Summon Imp (Entropy 2.5) - Permanent summon. Summoned Imps start with 1st level spell spheres based on their summoner, and are not allowed to upgrade to Mages.
    14. New spell: Meteor Swarm (Fire 2.5) - Works exactly like the FfH 025 spell, creating 3 strength 6 meteors. However, has a 3 turn casting delay (total of 4 turns to cast).
    15. New spell: Accelerate (Force 1 (Not typo)) - Acts like Haste, but only affects unliving units.
    16. Force 2 is now the magic missile effect and is a bit stronger.
    17. Unstoppable is now Force 2.5.
    18. New spell: Turn Frostling (Ice Arcane 2.5 or Ice Divine 1 (Along with Summon Frostling)) - Acts like Dominate, but is virtually unresistable and only affects units with the Frostling race.
    19. New spell: Rule of Law (Law 2 (Not typo)) - Reduces maintenance and crime rate in cities.
    20. Summon Host of the Einherjar is now Law 2.5; strength somewhat increased.
    21. The Life 2.5 promotion allows the unit to heal while moving, and gives +15% heal rate to all units in the tile and adjacent tiles.
    22. New spell: Summon Lifespark (Life 3, along with Ressurect) - Permanent summon with powerful healing abilities, identical to FfH025 version.
    23. New spell: Mana Fount (Metamagic 2.5) - Creates a Mana Fount in cities. Mana Founts are NOT lost if the caster leaves the city. Mana Founts increase the XP gain rate of Arcane units in the city, and may be consumed by any unit to act as a Spellstaff.
    24. New spell: Hideous Thoughts (Mind 2.5) - Unfortifies units in nearby tiles and makes affected units more likely to defend the stack. Can be resisted.
    25. New spell: Acid Fog (Nature 2.5) - Fireball-like spell. Cannot damage past 50%, but causes large amounts of collateral damage and poisons all damaged units.
    26. New spell: Enshroud (Shadow 2.5) - Gives the Hidden and Hidden Nationality promotions to the caster.
    27. New spell: Faith (Spirit 2.5) - Acts like Charm Person, but also gives -1 strength. Is harder to resist, but only affects Demons, Undead, and units that worship Ashen Veil, and wears off faster.
    28. New spell: Eye of the Sun (Sun 2.5) - Fireball-like spell. The Eye of the Sun has 0 strength, but is fast, has high vision range, and can see invisible units.
    29. New spell: Giant Wave (Water 2.5) - Fireball like spell. Giant Waves are stronger than Fireballs, but can only be summoned on water tiles. They can attack naval units, coastal cities, and units directly adjacent to the water.
    30. New spellcaster line for Kuriotates: Lamia Initiate, Lamia Priestess, Lamia Empress. Lamia race gives poison and magic resistance and converts 1 strength to poison damage. Lamias can cast the unique spell "Snake Blood", which acts like a Spellstaff. After casting the spell, they are Drained (-10% strength, 10% chance to wear off) and cannot use the ability again for a while. (No, I don't have graphics for these :p )
    31. New unit: Minotaur Evangel (Priest replacement for Kuriotates). Priest-level Divine spellcaster that can change religion at will at any Kuriotate city (not settlement) based on the religions in the city. Always have the state religion when built. Cannot be built without a state religion. More expensive than a normal Priest. Minotaur race gives a bonus vs. melee units and the ability to cast "Mighty Blow", giving +1 attack and -1 defense. After casting, they are Drained and cannot use the ability again for a while.
    32. New unit: Minotaur Messiah (High Priest replacement for Kuriotates). High Priest-level Divine spellcaster that can convert to the current state religion at any Kuriotate city. More expensive than a normal High Priest.
    33. New national wonder: Cult of the Gold Dragon Headquarters. Available to Kuriotates at Philosophy. Creates a Gold Dragon Disciple in the city when built, and gives the city a good chance of generating more over time.
    34. New unit: Gold Dragon Disciple. Crusader-like Divine unit. Can sacrifice self to spread the Cult of the Dragon building to any city (Cult of the Dragon gives positive culture and gold in Kuriotate and Sheaim cities, and negative culture and gold in others; can be removed with Inquisition). Can cast Splendor in any Settlement, making itself the lord of that Settlement. Generates culture and gold in the affected Settlement and boosts defense, but weakens any other Gold Dragon Disciple that enters the Settlement.
    35. New mechanic: Cult of the Dragon. Any Kuriotate city with the Cult, and any city with the Cult that the Kuriotates have open borders with OR are at war with has a chance per turn of generating a Gold Dragon Disciple, much like a Planar gate. The exceptions are Sheaim, Illian, and Barbarian cities; see below.
    36. New national wonder: Cult of the Black Dragon Headquarters. Available to Sheaim at Philosophy. Creates a Black Dragon Disciple in the city when built, and gives the city a good chance of generating more over time.
    37. New unit: Black Dragon Disciple. Crusader-like Divine unit. Can sacrifice self to spread Cult of the Dragon building to any city. Starts with Dimensional II (can teleport).
    38. Sheaim cities with the Cult of the Dragon will occasionally generate Black Dragon Disciples; they will never generate Gold Dragon Disciples.
    39. Cult of the Dragon building will automatically be created in Acheron's city.
    40. New unit: Red Dragon Disciple. Crusader-like Divine unit. Will automatically create a Cult of the Dragon building in any barbarian city it enters or captures. Can cast Fireball, and automatically Enrages all nearby units, friend or foe.
    41. Barbarian cities with the Cult of the Dragon will occasionally generate Red Dragon Disciples; they will never generate Gold Dragon Disciples.
    42. Stir From Slumber will create a Cult of the Dragon building in the city it is completed in.
    43. New unit: White Dragon Disciple. Crusader-like Divine unit. CANNOT spread Cult of the Dragon. Has the spellcasting abilities of a Priest of Winter.
    44. Illian cities with Cult of the Dragon will occasionally generate White Dragon Disciples; they will never generate Gold Dragon Disciples.
    45. New hero: Arlirn the Woodelf. Shapeshifting hero available at Feral Bond; replaces Baron Duin Halfmorn.
    46. New event: Once Feral Bond is researched, there is a chance Baron Duin Halfmorn will spawn as a barbarian unit. He is MUCH stronger now, and may come with friends...
    47. New promotion: Weretaint. Passed by werewolves to units they damage. Weretainted units heal slowly, and have a chance per turn to become a barbarian Ravenous Werewolf. Degrades to Wolftouched when the unit fully heals. Can be removed without granting Wolftouched by Cure Disease.
    48. New promotion: Wolftouched. Gives a slight strength boost and immunity to the Weretaint (Unit will still become a werewolf if killed by a werewolf). Degrades to Strong if the unit becomes a Werewolf.
    49. New unique feature: Tower of Eyes. Mind mana source. Can only be entered by units of level 4 or above. Living, non-Hero units that enter are Crazed. Provides a massive tile defense bonus.
    50. New wonder: Cathedral of Tali. Replaces Tower of Eyes wonder. Provides free Sentry promotion to units built in the city and (until I think of a better effect) +1 hammer from water tiles in the empire.

    The short version:

    1. FF043.
    2. Bunch of new spells.
    3. Cult of the Dragon is BACK!
    4. Werewolves. Fear them.

    And that's the plan. Note that this is a BETA changelog. It is likely to change as I get closer to implementation. Also note that it will be quite a while before I am ready to release this.
  3. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Dec 16, 2005
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    wow, lots of awesome changes here! I wasn't expecting so much, I thought this would be only about buffing Amurites. definitely a pleasant surprise ;)

    feedback from reading the changelog - I agree on all your changes, except these:

    1) industrious trait: it's one of my favourite traits and I would actually like to have more wonders in FFH in order to benefit from it more. so I dislike having it buff production instead of wonderbuilding ;)
    2) palisades getting a bonus from stone: doesn't really make sense, palisades are made of wood AFAIK.
    3) taking away the library event is harsh imho, it's annoying but nothing gamebreaking.
    4) same for the Sailor's Dirge, it just needs to not spawn very soon imho. I actually love it when it doesn't kill me 10 turns in the game :D
    5) goblin wastes event, I think it's fine the way it is in 0.34 . the only real issue was when it targeted city tiles. it would of course be nice to be able to "cleanse" the tile at a later stage with nature mana or something fitting
    6) if there is one event that needs axing, the "torture" event gets my vote. everyone hates that :lol:
  4. MaxAstro

    MaxAstro Spiral Knight

    Dec 18, 2007
    I've been working on this mod for a long time, I would hope I could manage more than just some buffs to the Amurites in the time since I started this (shortly after Shadow came out). :)

    In response to your feedback:

    1) I've always felt that the Industrious trait is simultaneously limited and overpowered. It REALLY strong if you are racing to a wonder. And otherwise, it doesn't do much. So I tried to make it more generally useful.
    2) Yeah, that doesn't make sense, but Stone is supposed to be a defense-assisting resource. It's a matter of gameplay over logic in this case; the sizable bonus to production speed of Palisades is actually the main use of Stone in my opinion.
    3 and 5) I have a personal problem with all events of the "if you don't have [arbitrary mana type] you are punished" variety. These events are actually not going to get fully axed, they are just pending changes. I want to add options other than either "nothing happens" or "you fail". For example, the Sickness event is going to get an opton for Ashen Veil civs to get a Diseased Corpses out of the dead bodies, and probably an option that lets you throw money at the problem to prevent the event from recurring. As soon as I think of what exactly I want to do with these events, they will be readded.
    4) As noted in the changelog, the Sailor's Dirge will be back in the 034 version, I'm just too lazy to update the event right now. :)
    6) I'll agree that it's a stupid event. It'll probably be changed or limited some how in the 034 version.

    Thanks again for the feedback. :)
  5. RogueThunder

    RogueThunder Warlord

    Dec 2, 2007
    *chuckles* you could say he's been poking things over and weve been bouncing them back and forth a while.
    1, heh... +50% to wonders is either useless, or OP, imo(and his, really)
    2, Hahaha, good point.
    3, He goes great libary so often he smashes into this one very very very often. Its a bit too... frequent. For the effect.
    4, Aye, just havent gotten that far. ATM disabling it was the simple quick fix.
    5, ... If it could be cleansed latter. I wouldn't mind. I doubt he would too much either. ^.^" But that event is PURE EVIL as is.
    6. ... *shrugs* I generaly take the "reprimand" result. I mean really, its not a HUGE loss.

    Edit: Lol, Max. Damn you ninja! (That, and ugh, why is firefox not refreashing when I hit refreash sometimes lately-ugh.)
  6. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Dec 16, 2005
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    I read your changelog text file and it looks like you're planning to add the tower of eyes as a unique feature, conquerable mana nodes and functional necrototems... looking forward to those ;)
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Feb 14, 2007
    Kael's head
    The Doviello have no need of Arenas; they would challenge each other in the field, with no need for a special building. I much prefer my Challenge spell (although my attempts so far to make it depend on the combat odds between 2 units broke it).

    Charadon should definitely be Charismatic.

    I think that the Son of Asena Axemen UU added in 0.34 is better. Warmonger just sounds dumb.

    I'd definitely want their melee units to steal weapons promotions, both in real battles and from using the challenge spell. I tend to think that Lucian should start with iron weapons. I also think that Doviello Melee units should have a chance to be upgraded for free from battle.

    Not so sure about the Trackless.

    Wouldn't just about everything from 0.34 be added?

    I don't really play the FF civs, so I'm not sure about their civic/trait changes.

    0.34 removed financial in exchange for spiritual, which s thematically more appropriate. Personally, I'd rather see him as Spiritual/Financial/Adaptive, or maybe Spiritual/Financial/Creative.

    Not a fan of your Amurite changes at all. I prefer:
    1. Govannon's training becomes a passive, PyPerTurn effect. He can train all spheres, but does so randomly, and perhaps only to one or two units at a time, favoring weak units. There is a small chance that he could train channeling 2 or maybe even 3 (very rarely), and could also rarely give other units a promotion that lets them train units too.
    2. The Sphere promotions are made available to all unitcombats (well, probably not animal, beast, siege, or navel), and all levels require the appropriate mana.
    3. Divine units cease to use Channeling, gaining Divine I and II instead, so priests are so uber.
    4. The Amurites gain a Royal Guard UU, The Guild Guard. The Amurite aristocracy is the Mage Guilds, so these are fanatically loyal to archmages instead of the king/nobles. Thematically, they would not get along with Govannon. Wizards and Firebows can both upgrade to these, and these can upgrade to knights. They require Mage Guilds to build, can get free xp, and start with Guardsman, Channeling I, Channeling II, Extension I (I'm thinking that Extension II should be available to all unitcombats, and that Profanes should start with Extension I), and Metamagic I (Metamagic I should be changed from summoning an floating eye to creating a requires-caster Ring of Warding building to defend cities from rival mages/summons).
    5. I might change Caves of the Ancestors to sometime randomly give out channeling 1 or 2 (and maybe Arcane) to units built there.
    6. Potency may be split into seperate promotions for Arcane and Spiritual, which could stack. (AV Priests and Arcane units can cross over to the other lines for some seriously powerful truely evil mages.)
    7. The Towers will get some sort of bonus, perhaps access to level 4 spells an a little free arcane xp. The Tower of Mastery will give out channeling III on move, which could make most Amurite units essentially archmages.

    Making Duin and Greater Werewolves Beasts is good. I don't see much of a reason for an animal race.

    I prefer to just give Winterborn more of a combat and movement boos in Tundra and snow.

    I don't see why you want to limit weapon promotions to much. I prefer to just make them cost some gold.

    I prefer that Lightbringers be removed, or rather changed to be a Malakim Ecclesiastic UU that has Sentry and Sun II.

    I still think that the Archery line should split in two:
    Archer->Longbowman -> Marksmen - No weapons promotions, stronger ranged attacks (only Marksmen, which have level requirements, can kill at range)

    Archer -> Crossbowman -> Arquebus - cheaper units, more expensive techs/building requirements. Weaker at range, collateral damage.

    (Hmm...I just starting thinking it could be really cool for longbowmen to be weaker but get Drill I, II for free and for promotions to provide small xp discounts, like Ambitious does)

    Orthus should start with March and Crazed plus have a chance to spawn Axemen when he wins a battle. The Barbarian state should gain some traits (like Aggressive/Charismatic/Raiders) when he spawns and loose them when Orthus is defeated.

    Not sure I like First Aide, but if it requires Medicine it would be fine.

    Subdue Animal and Subdue Beast should not be available to Naval units; being able to capture sea monsters like that would detract from the OO spells I have planned. Subdue Animal should not require Combat I, while Subdue Beast should probably require a higher level of Combat. (I'd still like Rangers or at least Beast masters to get the promotion for free.)Could their capture mechanism be changed so that you can give specific chances of capturing units of specific unitcombats? I think that having several levels of the promotions could be best.

    I guess the Lizardman changes make sense.

    I don't like forcing units to take promotions. I was just thinking though that a trait that gives March (maybe a trait for Orthus to give the Barbs) could be cool.

    Not sure I like the Shaper stuff.

    I don't think I like Waveriders. I'd like to change Water II to Tsunami, but if I add the temporary teraforming to the spell like I want to it would probablt have to be level 3. Water Elementals with the ability to cary naval units as cargo seem clearly level 3 too though. I don't mind having multiple level 3 spells, but I would like to come up with something good for water 2 first.

    I don't think I like having Feats not make you as evil. I still think that the formula should be adapted and that it should be able to raze cities.

    I've never liked the Lizardmen civs, so I can't comment much on their changes.

    Having the buffs stick around so long as a unit in on the stack would presumably require an awful lot of PyPerTurn effects. I'd rather add auto-spell-casting promotions to have the casters keep casting.

    I'm wiling to try the tech tree changes.

    I guess cheaper Theaters make sense.

    I've been proposing moving the City of Atousand Slums to Taxation since before the wonder was added.

    I agree that most palaces should provide defence, but am not sure about the precise number you chose. I also tend to think that palaces should have different costs and require different numbers of cities before you can move the palace. The Doviello palace should be very cheap and not have a number of cities requirement, but also not provide any defensive bonus.

    I don't like Castle buildings, as the name is already used for fort upgrades. I'd really like to be able to build forts on city tiles. I'd like Dungeons to give defensive bonuses, but gain their +1 unhappiness back.

    Why should Aqueducts give +1 food by rivers? You know what might be better/more appropriate but probably harder to implement? Letting cities with Aqueducts be a source of fresh water, so you could build farms without a nearby river.

    I'm fine wiht adding stone back, but it doesn't make sense for Palisades (which are defines as wooden walls) to get a building bonus with them. It might be nice to add a Highway/Royal Road route (railroad using the Roman Road graphics from the Charlemagne scenario) which require Stone.

    Stone doesn't seem good enough to be provided by something like Remnants of Patria. I tend to make the Remnants give Matamagic mana, as Patria was a magic dominated society with lots of lost knowledge.

    I don't see a connection between the Guardian and Law mana. (I've noticed it on both Peaks and hills.)

    I prefer to keep the Yggdrasil bonus a FoL thing. It might be nice for the bonus to be split between Tracking and Hidden paths though.

    I don't like Letum Frigus spawning Beastmen. Beastmen are a Doviello unit, and Letum Frigus an Illian holy site. No one was brave enough to enter it either, even the Illians, before Auric. Auric should definitely not have to keep keep fending off Beastmen to maintain his second source of Ice mana.

    Having Barrows, Hellfire, Hill Giant Steadings, and the Broken Sepulcher cause unhappiness makes sense, but I don't think the others do so much.

    Edit: for some reason I thought this was a list of things you were suggesting xienwolf and Vehem change,instead of about a modmodmod. I probably would have been less critical if I realized that, or not bothered posting.
  8. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Dec 8, 2001
    Cool, the Scions are in!

    And that change is a good idea. In their defense, though, the Imperial Cult get confused about the difference between nationalism and religion. Operationally they're pretty much the same as far as they're concerned.
  9. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

    Nov 12, 2005
    Kraków, Poland
    I quite like some of the changes. In fact, some mysteriously happen to appear in the changelog for Orbi 14c. Some may happen in the future, when I digest your code further.

    Nice ideas on spellcasting replacements for amurite melee line. I will probably implement it differently, but like the idea anyway. I am going to take a closer look at channeling, too :)

    I think you should not add things that get overridden with already avaliable FfH base, like sons of asena. What will you do when you update to 0.34?

    Couple of changes I do not like:
    stone - it is like adding wood resource. special wood is ok, but special stone is marble. Ok, granite, sandstone, limestone too, but that do not make big difference. And the impact on gameplay is negligible, too.
    Aqueduct - I see no reason in this change other than it is easy to implement. River tiles have enough water anyway, so more will not make any difference. Just lower aqueduct cost or find another ability.
    Castle building - it is ok (I have one called citadel, and the name is better for a city building I think), but rename an improvement then to avoid confusion
    Sailor's dirge is nice, just need the sailing prerequisity which is in 0.34 anyway
    dedicate obelisk +1 health +1 happy is still worse than +2 food
    beastmen from Letum frigidus - see MC's post
    Waverider is useless. Period. I prefer a normal ship with a bigger strength (and sorcery is quite late tech). Like my purify (health & healing speed bonus) better, but well, I may be only one... ;)
    I see no point in capturing sea animals (wel, turtles are nice, but not very usefull)

    Anyway, good job!
  10. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Dec 8, 2001
    Feedback on some things I especially liked or disliked.

    Like. I think it'd adds quite a bit to the "feel" of the Sidar.

    I like the basic idea quite a bit (though I'd prefer MC's pyperturn method, assuming someone else is doing all the coding) though I'd tone it down a little. Maybe charge gold for the promotions. (So some units would get them, some wouldn't.)

    I'm with Ahwaric on the Amurite changes.

    Hmm... I can think of 4 mods that made significant changes to Amurite units and IIRC none of the modders were ever enthused about the exact changes in another mod. :)

    Sounds fun. :)

    Another really good "feel" change, IMO.

    I like that quite a bit better than Spellstaff. Which doesn't say much, but still... :)

    I like that approach to early-game rush problems. (I've too-often made knocking out another civ or 2 during the Warrior-phase a basic part of my strategy.)

    Cool. I think be neat if they could "turn in" the captured units for a sizable amount of gold. ("Whaling.")

    Neat idea.

    Hmm... I think you might underestimate the importance of maximizing the war effort against the Angel of Despair!

    Ideally I'd say it either
    a) Carried a revolt/revolution (FiRE) chance.
    b) Required a non-Order religion in the city. Each use could carry the possibility to eliminate the non-Order religion. ("Sorry, sir, I know you're hungry but you ate the last rock-lover last week.")

    Very nice... does the spell still work if another spell is cast? (ie, does casting a different spell make a caster unable to cast the spell for that turn like in non-RLD FFH2?

    OTOneH, I like node-shuffling being beyond Sorcery. OTOtherH, I don't like Sorcery coming any quicker. (Pretty much a matter of taste, I think. Like the other criticisms...)

    You've obviously never had venison schnapps.

    While I agree with Ahwaric's comments, I've missed stone. Maybe if it were some special semi-magical (I wonder exactly what "semi-magical" means) stone? Opal? Allow a few magic-protection buildings to be built when it's available?
  11. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

    Oct 4, 2007
    Location! Location!
  12. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Dec 8, 2001
    So, you're abandoning the "death of a thousand cuts" approach you used against the SOP mod? Or are the major new features in *addition* to that?

    And is encryption is still on-track for version 045?
  13. MaxAstro

    MaxAstro Spiral Knight

    Dec 18, 2007
    @xp_gekko: Yes, those are all planned future changes. The Tower of Eyes will probably be switched to Mind mana. However, I like it's current "mutating units that enter" mechanic, and that wouldn't fit with Mind mana. Also, I'd have to find a new effect for the Cathedral of Tali; it was previously +1 hammer from water tiles globally, but with the addition of the Heron Throne that's less unique. The Necrototems will also need some reworking because a) Tarquelne went and added Necromancers to the Scions, so I need a new shtick for the totems, and b) They were far too dangerous anyway and needed to be toned down.

    @Magister: Thank you for the input, but we will have to agree to disagree on a lot of your points. :) Most everything that is being added in 034 (and for that matter, in the FF version of 034) I will defer to. I actually added Warmongers long before the Sons of Asena were announced; I was pleasantly surprised to see Kael somewhat duplicating a "fix" I'd already implemented. Some of what I added that is already taken care of in 034, such as the airship, I added simply because I couldn't wait for the 034 version of FF to come out. :)

    @ Ahwaric: Stone resource was added for a couple reasons. Firstly was to let me make Marble a revealable luxury resource, secondly was to make Quarries, currently one of the rarest improvements, a bit more commonplace; that +1 hammer bonus from Slavery is actually useful now. Thirdly was to add a relatively common production resource, fourthly was to give a little extra edge to defense, and fifthly it was to make Masonry vs Mining more of a real choice. I agree that the implementation could use some work, but I want to leave the resource in.
    Aqueduct was basically a quick fix to make the thing actually worth building, and to provide a slight buff to the Sanitation tech. I will probably change it once I come up with something else, but I do like the mechanic and will probably add a wonder or national wonder that does the same thing.
    +1 happy +1 health from Dedicate monument is effectively an extra population point, which can mean a lot more than +2 food if it triggers in your capital, or in a city that has hit its happy cap.
    The beastmen from Letum Frigus was originally inspired by the Letum Frigus' pedia entry, which talks about wild men living in the caves around the Winter Throne. It was also added before the Letum Frigus did anything else.
    The point of the waverider was to add something more useful than Water Walking to Water 2. And it's actually surprisingly useful in certain situations. Among other things, it'll let you get ocean transport without Optics. Or without coastal cities for that matter. XD
    There isn't much point in capturing sea animals, but there is some. Sea Serpents are a decent HN naval unit, and Giant Tortoises work as a poor man's ocean transport (S-L-O-W but sturdy, best for short trips).

    @Tarquelne: What I am thinking of doing is having the School have a 25% chance per sphere of granting the sphere, and having the Train spell have a 50% chance per sphere of granting the sphere. So you can eventually get every sphere on every unit, but it'll take you some time and gold. Still, that adds back in some of the microing I was trying to get rid of.
    Technically the Order Calabim can still Feast, they just have to be using Broader Alignments and make themselves evil again after adopting Order. :)
    The new mechanic for Haste, etc. basically works like buildings such as Hope. The promotion will stay as long as the caster does, and the caster can do whatever he wants, including cast other spells, as long as he doesn't leave the stack for a full turn.
    The magic tree thing is definitely a matter of taste. I prefer Sorcery to come a bit earlier, and I like having to work to get all the node techs. The main reason for these changes is to make Palace mana and UF mana much more important, since you will have Mages before you have the ability to refine mana nodes.

    @xienwolf: You. Suck. XD
  14. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Dec 16, 2005
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    I like MC's suggestion about aqueducts making the city a source of fresh water. not sure if it's doable, but it would definitely be nice.
  15. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

    Oct 4, 2007
    Location! Location!
    Well, to be fair the main change that will make you have to sit back and re-evaluate almost everything is your fault for choosing Amurites and not posting 2 days earlier, as it was just a day before you posted this that I got a nifty idea for how to tweak the Amurites in a VERY unique manner. But fortunately the idea has grown enough it will probably just apply for all Civs.
  16. Jean Elcard

    Jean Elcard The Flavournator

    Feb 26, 2006
    Leipzig, Germany
    You didn't have FlavourMod activated by any chance? It searches for a nice choke point in a mountain chain between two regions and places the Guardian there. If this choke point happens to be a mountain (because there is no passable connection between the two regions) it changes the mountain tile to hills. This way it's actually a pass the guardian is guarding. In the end it should look like in the screen shot below.

    Attached Files:

  17. MaxAstro

    MaxAstro Spiral Knight

    Dec 18, 2007
    Ah, yes, that is what I am seeing. Thanks for the explanation. I much prefer the Guardian to spawn on a peak, it looks better and is more thematically appropriate, but I can see why you'd do it the way you have, since that does result in it blocking an actual pass.
  18. Gilg

    Gilg Warlord

    Sep 6, 2008
    Building castles without a good stone quarry or 10... How??

    And seriously how is this going to turn out.... Will I someday find myself waiting for a modmod-modmod download to finish??
    I'm thinking that it might be a good time to reevaluate the adoption of modmods.
    Or at least for ffh and ff to be listed together in the download treads.
  19. MaxAstro

    MaxAstro Spiral Knight

    Dec 18, 2007
    Do you mean to say that castles are too expensive if you don't have stone? Yeah, they do have a decent hammer cost. That said, they are a fairly potent building. And if you are Defender leader with Stone, you can afford to spam them pretty much everywhere.

    And technically, this already IS a modmodmodmod. :p It's a mod of Scions of Patria, which is currently a mod of FF, which is a mod of FfH, which is a mod of Civ4.

    Next version it will lose one "mod" though, since Scions will be a normal part of FF, not a mod of it. :)
  20. Gilg

    Gilg Warlord

    Sep 6, 2008
    Actually I was advocating to existence of stone in the game. A nations fortifications in the ages where castles mattered would depend on the quantity and quality quarries. Making walls and palisades double speed with stone reflects this and brings more weight to resources.... A little like cobber and iron. I like that.

    Basically.... I like the fight for each individual square and an extra unit of banana. Needing stone to survive e strong clan rival sounds fun.

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