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Fallout Civs and some more stuff

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fury Road Modpack' started by Nameless One, Jun 10, 2009.

  1. Nameless One

    Nameless One Endarkened Despot

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    I really enjoy Fury Road mod but the current civs just didn't do it for me, so I decided to convert the original civs into factions from Fallout games that could be considered civilizations. Now that it's done, I decided to share it. Aside from the civs, I've also renamed the Cows resource with Brahmin and replaced Wheat with Mushrooms. All civs have static leaderheads mostly made out of screenshots from Fallout games. There are more than one leader per civ, but the distribution is not fair: Brotherhood of Steel has as many as 5 leaders, while some civs less detailed in the games have only one leader with barely acceptable graphics (for example, Reavers and Beastlords).

    I'll probably do some more work on this when I have some more free time. Converting civs and leaders was quite easy. I have a lot of ideas that would be interesting for both Fallout flavour and gameplay, but I lack the artistic skill to accomplish anything serious.

    I don't consider this to be any serious modmod release, but here's the list of works of others I've used, just to be fair:
    • Mao Leaderhead for Ken Lee from NeverMind's Static Leaderheads pack
    • Some flags and civ buttons from Axel's Barbarian Graphics Shop Flags
    • Some flags from 0d1n3oo3Broad's Flagpacks
    • Psychotic Llamas' Mushrooms resource

    Most of the screenshots I used for leaderheads are from Fallout Wikia. I got the Pitt flag by converting the modern Ensign of Pittsburgh I found on Wikipedia.

    To install, just make a copy of your Fury Road mod directory and unpack the contents of the archive inside the copy.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    You're free to use a screenshot of my brotherhood armor for BoS :).
     
  3. Nameless One

    Nameless One Endarkened Despot

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    I've updated the attachment in the first post. I've now added a unique palace for each civ except Reavers, Beastlords and Slavers. All unique palaces have unique effects except for vaults which have different names only. All unique palaces give bonus yields in most of the three categories. The +8 gold from normal Palace has been split into +2 gold (for salvageable pre-war money and bottlecaps) and usually +6 beakers for preserved remains of pre-war tech. There is also +2 - +6 hammers bonus for salvageable materials and a small food bonus for bases that I consider to have some sort of hydroponics or large food supplies. Each unique palace also gives a free resource. Sometimes, Happiness bonus is replaced with Health bonus because of pre-war medical tech.

    Here's the list of civs with their leaders and unique palace buildings:

    Beastlords
    Leaders: Dar (Aggressive, Imperialistic)

    Brotherhood of Steel
    Leaders: Roger Maxson (Industrious, Protective), John Maxson (Philosophical, Charismatic), Vree (Philosophical, Industrious), Rhombus (Aggressive, Protective), Owyn Lyons (Vigilant, Protective), Reginald Rothchild (Industrious, Organized)
    Unique Palace: Government Bunker (no food yield bonus but more hammers, beakers and safety, free Munitions, food storage, defence boni, space for 1 scientist, foot unit experience bonus, land unit production bonus)

    Ghouls
    Leaders: Harold (Expansive, Vigilant), Set (Aggressive, Protective), Roy Phillips (Aggressive, Vigilant)
    Unique Palace: Vault 12 (free Clean Water, food storage, air and nuke defense, unit healing bonus, space for 1 scientist)

    New California Republic
    Leaders: Aradesh (Philosophical, Spiritual), Tandi (Expansive, Organized)
    Unique Palace: Vault 15 (like Vault 12)

    Reaver Movement
    Leaders: Rodger Gaire (Industrious, Protective)

    Rivet City
    Leaders: Horace Pinketron (Industrious, Vigilant), Madison Li (Industrious, Organized), Harkness (Vigilant, Protective), Bannon (Industrious, Financial)
    Unique Palace: USS Lexington (no food yield bonus, free Ruined Airbase, +3 air unit capacity, defence bonus, space for 1 scientist and 1 merchant)

    Shi
    Leaders: Ken Lee (Industrious, Vigilant)
    Unique Palace: Steel Palace (no food yield bonus but more beakers, free Oil, unit healing bonus, +25% research, +1 beaker per specialist, space for 3 scientists, generates Great Scientists)

    Slags
    Leaders: Vegeir (Expansive, Vigilant)
    Unique Palace: Ghost Farm (more food and safety, free Corn, defence boni but smaller nuke defence than Vaults)

    Slavers Guild
    Leaders: Metzger (Aggressive, Financial)

    Super Mutants
    Leaders: The Master (Aggressive, Imperialistic), Marcus (Vigilant, Charismatic)
    Unique Palace: Military Base (same as Government Bunker but gives happiness instead of health)

    The Enclave
    Leaders: Dick Richardson (Aggressive, Organized), Augustus Autumn (Aggressive, Industrious), John Henry Eden (Aggressive, Charismatic)
    Unique Palace: Poseidon Oil Rig (no food but more hammers and safety, free Oil, food storage, Airlift ability, +3 air unit capacity, unit healing bonus, defence bonus, space for 1 engineer and 1 scientist, foot and air unit experience bonus, air units production bonus)

    The Pitt
    Leaders: Ishmael Ashur (Aggressive, Industrious), Wenher (Charismatic, Protective)
    Unique Palace: Steelyard (no food but much more hammers, -1 health and no happiness, free Iron, faster workers, +1 from Great Engineer, space for 3 engineers, generates Great Engineers)

    Tribals
    Leaders: Suluk (Vigilant, Protective), Hakunin (Philosophical, Spiritual)
    Unique Palace: Vault 13 (like Vault 12)

    Vault City
    Leaders: Joanne Lynette (Vigilant, Protective)
    Unique Palace: Vault 8 (like Vault 12)


    Changes to resources:

    Copper changed to Iron, but only name and appearance. Should be a strategic resource or free Iron from Steelyard is useless.
    Cows renamed to Brahmin.
    Added Clean Water resource available only from unique palaces. I plan to make a Project Purity wonder which will give a number of free Clean Water resources similar to Hollywood, Broadway and Rock'n'Roll projects from vanilla.
    Changed Wheat to Mushrooms, but only name and appearance. There's no wheat in Fallout setting.
     
  4. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    Actually there were wheet-like weeds on fields in fallout.

    Plus wheat easily adapts to environment. Wheat and corn should stay, however add 3rd resource mushrooms because rice shouldn't be in.

    However I think that shooms could be a happiness resource (and turned into some kind of drug).

    Drugs and medicines were major resources in Fallout, so I've added Jet Factory which provides Jet (+1 :) +1 :yuck:) resource if you have brahmin. Mushrooms can be turned in something else.

    I should dig resources for buffout and mentat.

    P.S. I've dug this:
    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Denom_dialogue_file

    There are some dialogues from unreleased Fallout Van Buren. They feature wheat, so it's in the setting (by developers).

    P.P.S. If you remember, main crops in fallout 1 & 2 were Corn and Cabbages. So probably you'd better add Cabbages?
     
  5. Nameless One

    Nameless One Endarkened Despot

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    Yeah, I've seen the wheat dialogue, too, so I guess I should bring it back.

    I wanted to add the cabbages from the beginning but no one ever made the resource for civ4 and I don't have the skills to do it. I could make the icons but not the 3D model that should appear on the map.

    Scavenging for pre-war drugs like buffout, mentats and psycho would be great. It should be another resource, called something like Drugs Cache, that is found in ruins when you research Scavenging tech.

    I also think Oil should be replaced with a resource found in ruins, something like Energy Cell Cache. Oil was severely depleted on Earth before the Great War. For example, presence of oil reserves and oil-fueled vehicles is one of the major sources of criticism towards Fallout Tactics. This resource would be very important as prerequisite for both vehicles and energy weapons.

    I'm also not totally satisfied with mining in Fury Road for Fallout setting. I don't see Copper as an important resource so I changed it to Iron, mostly because of the Pitt Steelyard, but it still doesn't fit very well. Ever heard of an iron mine in Fallout? Fallout miners mostly focus on uranium and precious metals. Also, why would anyone mine non-precious ore when there is an abundance of scrap metal all over the place? I suggest:
    1) Copper -> Scrap Metal, requiring Scrapyard instead of Mine, which would give this improvement more value in the game.
    2) Uranium making a comeback from vanilla. May be used to power a nuclear plant which may be found in the ruins and installed in the city. I don't know how far you are planning to go with the tech tree, but if some sort of civilized technology is restored in the later eras, it might be possible to built a plant that converts Uranium into Energy Cells.

    To make the game more interesting and drive on the struggle for resources, I think most of salvageable resources should be made depleteable. Maybe this is already implemented in Fury Road but I just didn't play long enough :)
     
  6. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Today in Fury Road, resources are not depleteable, except for the units you can rebuild from depots, airbases and silos. After a depot generates a few tanks, the chance of generating tanks there goes down, and after a few more, it stops. It would be possible to use this mechanism to make various improvements like mines disappear after some time. But, does that really make the game more fun?
     
  7. Nameless One

    Nameless One Endarkened Despot

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    I think so, because a civ that has depleted its source of Munitions will be stimulated to go to war with another civ or settle an unsettled area in order to gain a new source. Either that, or they can choose to risk having fewer advanced units than their neighbours and becoming a victim of their expansion.

    It's also more realistic. Any source of scavenged equipment is not a permanent solution in the long run, which is especially important if Deon is preparing a larger tech tree with several eras.
     
  8. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Copper is neede for computers, or just for cabels, so it's important ;).



    And because you're talking about resouces:
    Has anybody thought about adding rats and roaches as a food resource?
    Both would survive a nuclear war, would spread fast, and could be used for a meal.
    Would fit to the postapocalyptic world (not "just" Fallout).
     
  9. Nameless One

    Nameless One Endarkened Despot

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    I have an idea which I've already discussed with Deon about bringing back the Camp improvement. Hunting should be an important part of post-apocalyptic survival since getting enough food from farming and herding is much more difficult than in normal world. My idea is to have hunting resources like geckos, radroaches, giant ants, dogs, varieties of mutated rats, etc which would function similar to Fury Road Horses. You would have fight the spawned animal units first in order to conquer the resource, and only then be able to build the Camp improvement with your workers.
     
  10. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Good idea. The horse special effect is contained in python function maybeHorse, which is called by the onUnitMove event. You could make this function more general and take a list of the animals which should be treated this way. Be careful to keep the runtime of this function very fast, since onUnitMove is called very frequently.
     
  11. Nameless One

    Nameless One Endarkened Despot

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    Does the Horse unit ever fortify on Horse resource and guard it? I've never seen it in the game but I think it would be great both for Fury Road Horses and any hunting resources in either setting.
     
  12. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    No. The horse appears randomly the first time any player enters the plot.
     
  13. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I think depletable resources = notfun. Its just frustrating when it happens to a human player, and it just weakens the AI.

    I would love to see this mod expanded along Fallout lines. A slower tech progression (longer in the pre-guns and pre-vehicles era), with a more developed end-tech (actually start reconstructing society towards the end, along with energy weapons and robots and such).
    And Fallout factions with some faction-specific UUs, UBs and mechanics.

    So Beastlords can build deathclaw units, brotherhood can get some power-armor soldiers, Reavers can get guys with energy weapons, mutants can get really tough infantry with heavy weapons, etc.

    And tweak the mapscripts more fallout stuff, and more special pre-placed map objects; add vaults as resources like ruins are (might be required for energy weapons techs or robots or whatever), along with other types of ruined objects; ruined power plants that can be got back up and running, a ruined hydro dam that can provide power or irrigation for food bonuses, a ruined airport that can function as an airbase and might spawn some air units, etc. etc.
    Basically all kinds of things to make the terrain your faction controls different to other terrain. Maybe one faction has an airport and can get some air units, maybe another gets better industry from getting a powerplant up and running, etc. etc.

    There is so much potential here in the post apocalyptic genre, and the Fallout world in particular.....
     
  14. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Those are some excellent ideas. Do you know xml to start implementing some ideas? Having the ideas is one part, making it play-balanced is another part.

    Love your sig quote - you can't stop the signal!
     
  15. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    No sorry, I'm design work, balance and playtest, my coding skills are nil.

    And my modding time is mostly consumed with the Warhammer mod. If I get a chance though I'll throw up a list of possible ideas (quite possible, I'm often in need of a procrastination excuse).

    I think I can keep ideas at least reasonably balanced. Though I would try to balance factions at a civ level; so some lower-tech factions would have advantages in early game offensive power, whereas more tech-oriented factions would be better off late game.
     
  16. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Actually writing the design into the xml is pretty easy. I can do that. If you would like to propose a design with detailed stats, and so forth, we can certainly try it out.
     
  17. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Fury road thoughts and balance issues.
    0. I like the palace specials for the Fallout factions, but they aren't particularly well balanced yet, partly because many of the resources do nothing. I like the concept, but you need to make iron (steel), oil, airbases etc. actually do something. If there are some *buildable* units that require these, it would help. So, you can never build Gunships, but you can build light fighter planes that can bombard; and the Lexington has the resource for these for free (and earlier than the other civs) and maybe gives a +2 free xp for newly created air units (it has some aircraft left in the decks, and maybe some flight simulators).

    I'd also make the palaces unbuildable; it just doesn't make sense that you can relocate your Vault.
    It would also be cool to get individual graphics for these; in particular to watch the city slowly growing up around a Vault entrance, a la Vault City.

    1. I'd like to see a distinction between salvager/preserver factions (Brotherhood of Steel, Reavers, Enclave, etc.) and tribal or reconstructive factions. In particular, I'd like the former to be like the current factions are; low tile yields from most improvements, heavily dependent on settling near city ruins.
    Whereas I'd like to see the latter have better tile improvements, and less to gain from salvaging the ashes of the old cities, and so more incentive to build up in the wilderness.

    This can be implemented by changing the tile yields from particular improvements/features , and providing some slightly divergent tech-trees with different units. So while the brotherhood are building small squads of troops with guns, the Beastlords are building Deathclaws and radscorpions, the tribals are building armies of hunters and cavalry, and the Pitt guys are building hordes of armored swordsmen and maybe knights and such, and then vehicles.

    I'd also like to see some interesting mechanics, maybe driven by a unique tech for various factions. So; Slavers get a better slavery mechanic which can capture units and maybe create slave workers (and maybe you can settle the slave workers in cities as great people that provide +1 hammers). Beastlords and tribals could get the ability to capture animals and tame them (or the FFH Barbarian leader trait that has peace with the barbs). Ghouls and supermutants could get bonuses rather than penalties from radiation. The brotherhood could eventually get some Paladins in power armor (powerful units with a small national cap).

    2. The tech-tree is far too short. 26 techs in total?
    I'd like to see more techs, and deeper and more distinct eras. I'd suggest:

    i) Survival era. Think of the tribal villagers from Fallout, or Mad Max, or whatever. Very low tile yields, only a few cities.
    Suggested Units: survivors, tribal warriors (melee unit with combat bonus vs animals), crossbows, lancers, horse archers, catapults.
    Maybe something of the herbal medicines that you get in fallout; herbalist building, etc.

    ii) Early fire-arms (small arms)/scavenging.
    Suggested units: light small arms, motorbikes, utility trucks, horse cavalry with guns (I can't believe this is missing!), machineguns.
    Reveal the tier3 resources (munitions, depots, air strips).
    Scrap yards and salvaging.
    New govt forms like feudalism and slavery.

    iii) Late fire-arms, heavy weapons, vehicles, early aircraft (think crop dusters + light weapons, treat like fighters from vanilla, and eventually helicoptors).
    Flamers, RPGs, miniguns, jeeps, oil refineries, electricity, small factories
    Civic types like democracy, totalitarianism (better than police state IMO), communism
    Some means of reducing city maintenance costs (like vanilla courthouse).

    iv) Power armor, later aircraft (tbirds), energy weapons, robots, nukes.
    Have Vault resources that are revealed by techs in this phase, that could have been anywhere (they need not have been in city ruins). These are required to build power armor soldiers and energy weapons soldiers and the like (different types for each? or different units available to each faction? - brotherhood gets power armor, reavers get energy weapons, enclave gets both?)
    And at the very top, some manufacturing plants that are able to produce some of the lower level spawnable vehicles, and some happiness buildings that let cities grow a little larger.

    3. Rethink the heroes. These are quite unbalanced, particularly Tank Girl. They are often powerful and come very early, they start with a ton of free promotions and very high strength, and they are very random in getting them. I don't mind having some amusing pop-culture references, but these shouldn't be game-changing super-warriors.
    I'd suggest trying the FFH hero system, where heroes are basically ordinary units that keep getting free xp over time, so level up to be quite powerful.
    Also, as a rule of thumb; heroes should be no more than 1-2 strength points more powerful than regular units, and start with at most 1-2 free promotions.

    4. I really hate the fuel mechanic. Its just boring micromanagement that the AI handles really badly; it doesn't know how to stack all its vehicles together and refuel them together, and it doesn't seem to know how to not waste fuel by moving its vehicles around all the time.
    There have got to be other ways to make vehicles feel special and post apocalyptic without micromanagement + weak AI.

    If possible, it would be great to get the AI spawn rate of high-end vehicles depend on the difficulty level, so at high difficulty levels they get more stuff.

    5. I'd like to extend the idea of the "ruined world" to exploit. I like the city ruins and their various resources, but I'd suggest extending this with a more . Have scrap metal resources that junk yards can be built on. Have more bonus resources not on city tiles that are revealed by particular techs, and just give improved tile yields. You don't necesarily have to build an improvement on them. Like an old powerplant that gives +1 hammers +1 commerce, that gets revealed by an electricity tech (you finally have the know-how to get it up and running again).

    6. I'd change the unit classes slightly. I'd think about taking out mounted units (and make them melee or ranged), merging wheeled and utility trucks (not much need for a separation?) and merging siege and ranged. These are relatively unimportant suggestions though.
    I'd also consider making flamers have the offensive bonus vs ranged and melee units, but not a defensive bonus. As it is, they beat everything except jeeps, humvees, lancers, tanks and artillery.
    I'd also think about making lancers get a bonus vs ranged units, and definitely adding another melee unit to the game, so that melee isn't just for suckers.

    I'd probably add another offensive infantry at automatic weapons; just machineguns alone feels too little for the tech.

    7. Civics need a redesign, they're too much like vanilla, there's a fair amount that could be done here.

    If you like these ideas and can see them realistically being implemented, let me know which specific areas and I can try to provide more design detail.
     
  18. Nameless One

    Nameless One Endarkened Despot

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    Ok, I'm done with my exams so back to posting :)

    My idea for those advanced pre-war units is to be buildable in cities, especially if Deon plans to cover restoration of pre-war tech with later eras of his tech tree. That's why I think depletable resources would be fun. In the beginning eras, you would rely on discovered depots, airbases and caches to build units, but it would not be a guaranteed source of units in the long run. Later, when you discover some advanced techs, you could build units with some undepleteable sources. For example, Uranium would replace Energy Cells when you discover how to make them, and if you have a tech to build tanks you could build them from Scrap Metal instead of having to rely on scavenging Ruined Depots.

    That's absolutely what I intended when I made those palaces, it's just that vanilla XML doesn't offer a way to do it, so it will have to be either a "Never" tech like in FfH or some dll editing.

    That's a good idea but it will have to be very carefully implemented because of balance issues. Some civs could end up having much easier time than others. I've also considered some varying starting units for different civs. It would be fun if the Enclave could start on a small island (Poseidon Oil Rig) and with a transport ship and/or vertibirds so that they can expand inland, for example.


    I've had this idea as well although no time to post it. Here's what I though of so far:


    1) Reavers can have Capture Animals promotion like in FfH

    2) Super Mutants can't build non-vehicle units and have their cities grow. Instead, they capture Slaves when they win a battle. Then, they can take those slaves to their capital or a city with FEV Vats, their unique building, and turn that units into a fighting Super Mutant unit, workers, settlers or a population level for that city.

    3) Ghouls would probably be the most complicated. My idea is to introduce Radiation numeric property for units, similar to Age in Fall Further. Units would be able to move through Fallout fields, but their Radiation would increase. At certain levels of Radiation, unit randomly either dies or turns into a Ghoul unit. There would also be a Civic which defines a civilizations view on mutants, with options like "Shoot on sight", "Slaves", "Tolerated", "Equal Citizens" and "Mutants Only", or something like that. When a unit turns into a Ghoul unit, an event would fire for owning civ with choices depending on this civic, but covering the options of keeping the unit, killing it or exiling it. Of course, the kept Ghoul unit could always go feral and turn Barbarian. An exiled unit either turns feral and starts roaming the wasteland like as a Barbarian unit, or it stays sane as and joins the Ghouls civ. From that point, the Ghouls would have similar choices as Super Mutants would have with a captured Slave unit. Also, the Ghouls should be able to have a promotion similar to the Reaver Capture Animals, but working only on Feral Ghouls.

    That's all the exotics for now, but I guess almost every civ should have some interesting mechanics. For example, there could be a Slave specialist available to those with Slavery civic. Some factions might have Sprawling trait from FfH, although I would definitely like to give it a different name. For example, the Brotherhood, the Vault City and the Enclave could have a very limited number of very advanced cities and then build bunkers which would be like Kuriotate settlements in FfH, built only to spread culture and thus gain control over territory and resources.

    If I understood correctly, Deon is currently working on that, and I don't want to meddle in it until we have his first draft. If we all start working on a tech tree at the same time we might end up with completely different things. Better to have one man make the first draft and then enhance it with suggestions from others.

    I completely agree. I've even collected some ideas for the heroes from Fallout games. Here's what I've got so far:
    Brotherhood: Star Paladin Cross, Sentinel Sarah Lyons (or Lyons Pride as a unit), Paladin Tristan
    The Enclave: Frank Horrigan, K-9
    Ghouls: Lenny, Charon
    Slavers: Vic, Clover
    Super Mutants: Fawkes, Melchior
    Rivet City: Jericho
    NCR: Ian, Tycho, Dogmeat, Robodog
    Vault City: Cassidy
    Tribals: Goris (or maybe it's better for Reavers?)

    Hmm, maybe Robodog should be a robotic unit and K-9 a hero derived from it? Dogmeat would be derived from normal dogs.


    One of the key characteristics of Fallout setting is that fossil fuels are depleted. Vehicle units should required Energy Cells resource to build, later replaced by Uranium.

    I've already implemented such Scrap Metal resource in my installation of Fury Road but I didn't have the time to test or share it. My idea for ruins exploration is to have Unexplored Ruins feature that looks the same as or very similar to Explored Ruins feature. Each Unexplored Ruins could be explored like dungeons in FfH. When exploration is finished, they'd turn into Explored Ruins which would function exactly the same as current Ruins. Of course, Unexplored Ruins would give the same yield and defense bonus as Explored Ruins.

    Mounted units have absolutely no place in Fallout. As for Utes, I think David's idea was to give them access to unique promotions such as Mounted Gun. You can't mount a gun on a vehicle that already has some sort of weapon(s).

    I've also had another idea about units but I'm not sure if it isn't too much micromanagement. My idea is to build infantry units based on armor (Power Infantry, Combat Infantry), and then you scavenge or produce weapons for the unit to use like equipment in FfH. There could also be special types of damage to which some units could be more resistant. For example, you would produce Power Infantry with starting strength of 10. Then, you could produce or scavenge Energy Weapons which they could take for +5 Energy strength.

    I absolutely agree. I've toyed with the idea of values instead of religions like in Final Frontier, but then I realized, and Deon agrees, that there are enough religions in Fallout setting to have normal Civ4 religions in the modmod. Values could then be implemented as a civic (Power, Wealth, Science, etc).

    Here's what I managed to gather on religions:
    Children of the Atom: Allows a civ to turn their units into Ghouls, similar to Octopus Overlords turning units into Drowns in FfH.
    Children of the Cathedral: Allows limited recruitment of Super Mutant units (Nightkin) and increases relations with Super Mutants civ.
    Followers of the Apocalypse: Gives bonus to science instead of whatever default religion bonus turns out to be for the modmod.
    The Hubologists: Gives gold bonus instead of whatever default religion bonus turns out to be for the modmod.
    The Union: May not adopt Slavery civic. May free slaves and turn them into workers or settlers.
    Old Religion: Remnant of pre-war religions. Default religion without any special boni or penalties.

    I also did some research about the Guilds. Here's the ideas for now:
    Talon Company (military boni)
    Water Merchants (something with water resources)
    Reilly's Rangers (exploration boni)
    The Regulators (Safety boni)
    Friendly Lending Company (something like interest on the current wealth)
    Far Go Traders
    Crimson Caravan

    I've also thought about families from New Reno as guilds, but maybe it would be too much and maybe there should be a civic for civs to select which New Reno family or other criminal syndicate, if any, to support.

    I'd also add some unique features like those in FfH. Many modern world wonders located in real world USA could be used as unique features for Fallout. For example, the civs could discover and settle near White House, Statue of Liberty, Hoover Dam, Mount Rushmore, Washington Monument, etc.
     
  19. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Basically, it seems you either disagree with or "really hate" every design decision I have made. Thank you for providing honest feedback. I may come back to this mod and tweak it with a longer tech tree and some other small changes. But I do not plan to do a total redesign myself, at this point.
     
  20. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    13,266
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    @davidlallen
    The only major design decision that I really hate is the fuel one, and thats mostly because of the micromanagement burden + AI ineptitude (it constantly leaves units without fuel scattered around the map that are easy to pick off).
    The other suggestions are either minor, or I think don't conflict with the basic thrust of the mod. I didn't mean to give the impression that I didn't like what you had; I think its a cool mod and the city ruins mechanics are very flavorful.

    But if you don't think that any of my ideas are compatible with your vision (slightly longer tech tree and longer pre-vehicles/firearms early game, differentiation between tech salvaging factions vs build-from-scratch factions, more in the way of unit variety and faction diversity), obviously I can respect that.

    If you can give me some idea of the way you would prefer the mod to go, I can see if I have any ideas that might help that.

    @Nameless
    I'd keep really high-tech stuff as scavenged only.
    So you're never going to be able to manufacture power armor or energy weapons; but you might get a few of them from a Vault.
    However, you could eventually get enough manufacturing back up to be producing vehicles and fuel trucks and the like. Basically; 20th century tech, producible. 21st century tech, should remain salvaged only.
    My impression is that davidlallen doesn't want the mod to get back to a real civ even in the late-game where you can produce everything, as that detracts from the post-apocalyptic feel. A mainstay of the postapocalyptic genre is that you can never get back to where humanity was before the Fall.

    But resources that random disappear are insanely frustrating for the players, and lie outside their control. There is nothing more frustrating for a strategy gamer than major-game-impacting things happening that they can't really plan for or optimize around.
    Its also likely to create a slippery slope problem; a large empire that is already winning is more likely to have 2+ copies of a resource, and so be less screwed when they disappear.

    If the only resources that disappear are those that spawn units, then that would probably be ok.

    I've gotten so used to FFH and Warhammer (based on FFH/Fall Further) that I've completely forgotten what you can and can't do from vanilla civ.

    Reavers? Aren't reavers the technology worshipping cult that hordes energy weapons? This should be a Beastlords thing and maybe tribalists.
    Yes, it would have to be carefully designed.
    I'd imagine for example that tech factions would be as currently implemented (maybe with much more expensive settlers though), and that tribalists (and other similar factions) would get no or reduced benefits from the city ruins improvement, be unable to build depot/airfield/armory (or have higher tech requirements from doing so, or have 50% lower spawn rates for the units), and would get some mix of:
    a) slightly separate tech trees emphasizing civic growth and development rather than technological weapons
    b) different units; more in the way of cavalry, melee infantry and archers and tribal medicine (poisons, etc), cheaper expendable units with significant withdraw chances for skirmishing.
    c) workers that construct improvements more quickly, or tile bonuses from some improvements, or access to different improvements (waterwheel, windmill, workshop, rather than oil well and junkyard)
    d) maybe they could get trade bonuses on rivers?

    I'd envision these factions as being strong early game with slighltly better low-tech units (survivors and cavalry and archers), weaker militarily buy stronger economy mid-game, and then significantly more economy potential in the late-game (though again lower military potential).

    Basically, tech factions would be about "quality", with better units coming from a few cities heavily focused on the clusters of city ruins, whereas tribal factions would be more "quantity", with more cities and larger populations, but weaker units (and low hammer production).

    Makes sense.
    I'm less concerned with names than with stats. Look through online walkthrus of the various games though for more ideas.

    Tank girl is horribly unbalanced and tends to break the game; commando and march and no fuel and massive strength? She is able to constantly drive around assassinating the out-of-fuel enemy units that they leave around and getting back to friendly territory.
    Well, I'm thinking about the main game as well. There's a bit of a conflict between the fury road mod, which seems to be from a nuclear war that happens tomorrow, and the Fallout canon where the war happens in ~2073.
    I'd mix them for playability purposes, and still have some fossil fuel stuff around, it works pretty well and its pretty staple of a lot of postapocalypic genre stuff (Waterworld "Smokers" types with fuel).
    Hmm. Might work. There's room for a lot of flavor in the explorable dungeons.
    However, part of my idea was to get away from just ruined cities as potential places for scavenging; there are plenty of industrial, technological or whatever facilities that need not be located in the clustered ruined cities.
    I disagree. You didn't have horses in any of the games, but then you don't have horses in almost any fantasy games because they're such a giant PITA to implement. Baldur's Gate-type games (or Neverwinter Nights, etc) never had any horses, but that didn't mean that there weren't cavalry there in the world.

    It makes no sense that no horses would survive, and horses would be *massively* useful afterwards, for agriculture and warfare.
    In particular tribal-types that are the residue of rural socities that lived a long way from the cities would have still had horses, and would have used them extensively.

    Horses also fit very nicely into the "wild west" theme that so much of Fallout is emulating.

    And they're pretty common in a lot of post apocalyptic stuff anyway.
    This is a good idea that deserves implementation.
    But these aren't mutually exclusive, particularly if you make a split between tech factions (mostly descendants of the vaults and the cities) and rural factions that have cavalry.

    I just hate though that vehicles are available at a tier1 tech. I'd much prefer a slower buildup to 20th century tech (like the Fallout games have).
    I think this is overly complex, and the AI never handles things like that well. I'd leave such things as just having a few different units. Its much easier to have separate flamer/infantry/machinegun/minigun/anti-tank/SAM infantry units than it is to try to do it with upgrades. And if you want a few different types of power armor soldiers, then just make multiple types of those too.
    There's not really much to be gained with trying to make things come from upgrades.

    Re: religions and corporations
    I think a lot of these are unncessary. Part of why this mod works is that the original design is pretty simple. Don't just make this into another FFH clone.

    I really like using the religion system as representing "influence". You get some of the feel of vault city/NCR/new reno vying for influence over the various towns.
     

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