1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Farms need a buff

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ElliotS, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,715
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    This is mostly lifted from the Tundra balance thread because it didn't get resolved:

    Having rivers next to every single farm in a perfect farm hex: (7 farms in a hex) The mythical unicorn of farm formations, gives 37 yields on plains or grassland.

    Meanwhile 7 forest tiles with lumbermills and a workshop grant: 35 yields now, and 38 yields with Gazebo's proposed +1 food per 2 forests herbalist buff.

    This is the optimal placement. Villages, Resources, GPTI, land features and such can ruin that. I'm sure that in some even crazier hypothetical scenario you could make an additional 6 farms to increase the yields by 6, but that just never happens in games, especially when you remember that this is counting rivers for every single worked farm.

    In a similar scenario if you worked 7 farms that only had +1 food from adjacency each, and only had rivers on 3 of them, you would get 31 yields. This is a more average situation.

    The math is very clear (imo) that forests are stronger right now. They provide better yield types (I value production over food) and more yields most of the time. Even the most perfect scenarios don't see farms beating out forests by very much.

    My proposal:
    If we're to buff forests as G proposed: Every 3 adjacent farms grants +1:c5culture:. (Much like and in addition to the +1 :c5food: per 2 adjacent farms)
    If we're not going to buff forests: Make it every 4 adjacent farms grants +1:c5culture:.

    Thoughts or alternate suggestions?
     
  2. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    266
    I have been playing a lot of civ 6 recently, and I have to admit, the one thing civ 6 does better than VP is the yields blob on improvements, rather than buff farms, I would just nerf the other improvements.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,970
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Are you considering that food tiles are the only ones that get worked once a city becomes full on specialists?
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,311
    I’m not seeing the problem in my current game.

    Food feels pretty good. Early game a farm triangle is better than a forest. With workshops and lumber mill it’s true I don’t cut forest anymore...but i still work farms. And getting some big food farm rings is very helpful for specialists...expecially guild cities.
     
  5. Grabbl

    Grabbl Prince

    Joined:
    May 25, 2016
    Messages:
    429
    a buff for three adjacent farms seems good, however I'm not sure if we really need more culture... I would prefer gold perhaps.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,085
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
  7. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,500
    ElliotS, under your proposal, would the culture from adjacent farms come from the very start of the game or upon unlocking a certain tech (and if so, which one)? Because while forests can become very strong with lumbermills and workshops, those come at a later point in the game.
     
  8. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,263
    Location:
    Venice, California
    To me this is probably the key point.

    Speaking generally, I have no problem with worked forests being "better" than farms by some standards, as along as a city cannot grow very large by solely working forests. For me they are a specialty item that don't seem particularly out of whack right now.
     
  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,715
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    If possible putting it in at civil service would be best imo. That's when Farms just become objectively much worse in my experience.

    That hasn't been my experience, but I havn't played too many games since the food changes. I'll keep my eye out.

    I wanted to do that, but G is considering buffing Herbalist because people think forests are weak, despite them being stronger in raw yields than farms. (I guess yield type is a point for debate now.)

    If people would rather nerf everything to the level of farms as is, I'd be open to it.

    @CrazyG I'd really like your opinion on yield types, and this topic in general.
     
  10. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    266
    In my opinion, farms have achieved the perfect level of balance, if they are too weak right now, its because other things just became way to strong, right now I am feeling that the game ends a bit to soon on standard, and I think removing a yield or two from the strongest improvements may slow down the early game snowball a bit, and make the games overall a bit longer.
     
  11. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,263
    Location:
    Venice, California
    ElliotS, here's how I interpret tu_79's point. Once cities focus heavily on specialists, food tiles become more valuable, as most cities have no choice but to use them -- in which case, forests' production power loses value. They're not valuable enough to make a city cut back on specialists for the forests' production power... and when a city switches to production for specific builds like SS parts, Wonders, etc, it's going to favor mines.
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,851
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    No better place to discuss this, so here's the WIP list of changes to the tech yield change table:

    Code:
    INSERT INTO Improvement_TechYieldChanges
        (ImprovementType, TechType, YieldType, Yield)
    VALUES
        ('IMPROVEMENT_FARM', 'TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_FARM', 'TECH_FERTILIZER', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_FARM', 'TECH_ECOLOGY', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_CAMP', 'TECH_GUILDS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_CAMP', 'TECH_RIFLING', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_CAMP', 'TECH_GUNPOWDER', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_TRADING_POST', 'TECH_ECONOMICS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_TRADING_POST', 'TECH_ELECTRICITY', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_MINE', 'TECH_STEEL', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_MINE', 'TECH_STEAM_POWER', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_MINE', 'TECH_COMBUSTION', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_QUARRY', 'TECH_STEAM_POWER', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_QUARRY', 'TECH_MACHINERY', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_QUARRY', 'TECH_DYNAMITE', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_PASTURE', 'TECH_CIVIL_SERVICE', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_PASTURE', 'TECH_FERTILIZER', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_PASTURE', 'TECH_BIOLOGY', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_PLANTATION', 'TECH_CHEMISTRY', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_PLANTATION', 'TECH_PLASTIC', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_PLANTATION', 'TECH_ECONOMICS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS', 'TECH_COMPASS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS', 'TECH_NAVIGATION', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS', 'TECH_REFRIGERATION', 'YIELD_FOOD', 2),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL_JUNGLE', 'TECH_METALLURGY', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL_JUNGLE', 'TECH_COMBUSTION', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL', 'TECH_METALLURGY', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
        ('IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL', 'TECH_COMBUSTION', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
    Tech yield from fresh/no-fresh is gone.

    I'm also going to drop the base gold on villages by 1.
     
    Owlbebach, Grabbl, ElliotS and 2 others like this.
  13. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    777
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    Yield gains are also uniform now, no more +:c5gold:, than + :c5food: and later +:c5production:.
     
  14. Questdog

    Questdog Prince

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    517
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Well, it's been fun, but I am outta here..... this change to farms is intolerable to me.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,311
    So you feel that farms get too much food now? (This was a quasi boost to farms...since they now get their full bonus a bit sooner)
     
  16. Questdog

    Questdog Prince

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    517
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    No, it is the homogenization that I object to. In Civ3 (I think) you could not even build a farm without access to fresh water.

    If you want balance just get rid of all the different terrains and improvements and just make each tile worth 3f/1h/1g and be done with it.....that is where we seem to be heading....

    I believe you should quit trying to balance every starting location and just try to get the AI to play as well as a human would in a particular location. It seems silly to me that I should have just as easy a time by starting in tundra or desert as I would in lush grasslands with a good river system. This is not what I want. When I get plopped down in the middle of a desert, I want to have an uphill battle to carve out my empire, not say, "Oh, great! Deserts! I'll be rolling in gold this game....".
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,851
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Oh no, I guess I'll have to give you a refund. Oh wait...

    This is such a ridiculous argument, not to mention that I explicitly noted that this is WIP, i.e., not a finished balance model. Furthermore, that these changes have no impact on starting location viability.

    G
     
    Viralvoid likes this.
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,085
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I'm a bit surprised to see homogenization on farms as well; I don't believe anyone was asking for that. We will test it, and some people will hate as a knee-jerk reaction, but there will no doubt be people with reasoned arguments for/against.

    VP has taken some wild swings, but I'm personally not against having an educated opinion on why I like fresh/no-fresh on certain improvements over others
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  19. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    194
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. The change I dislike the most is the farms, that's certain. I don't know why, might be because of the hours I spent playing vanilla, but I always find myself trying to build the first farms around the rivers, and I like doing so. It seems flavorful. But now I won't get anything from doing it. It's different with improvements on resources, though, as you can't decide where those will appear.

    Have you considered a base +2 food for farms next to fresh water? I mean... It was the point of this thread, right? ^^u. If it's too strong from the beginning, maybe give that bonus to an early tech?

    Also... That +2 food to fishing boats... Is it a typo? Just wondering.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
    vyyt and Questdog like this.
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,851
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Sigh...the post above is solely the tech yield changes. It is not the entirety of changes I have planned, but I need to look and see if something I want to do will work before making a change. So everyone, chill. This is why I rarely post WIP stuff.

    G
     

Share This Page