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Farms need a buff

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ElliotS, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. Questdog

    Questdog Prince

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    I agree that I merged two arguments into one.....sorry for that....

    One anger against the fresh water nerf and another against trying to make all starts equally viable (though they are at least related).

    @Chandler expressed it better than I did.
     
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    This is a philosophical gaming perspective, and you either agree or you don't. I've already said in different threads that, like you, my preference is for a noticeable degree of inequality. But I'm very happy with how these issues have been addressed so far. Tundra and desert have yet to be elevated to plains/grass level of productivity. I would like rivers to have intuitive advantages, and hope there's a way to achieve that. But I also know, going all the way back to Communitas discussions on this very issue, that it's really hard to do so in a way that sustains overall balance.
     
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  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Did I read it correctly? Jungle lumbermills get production and forest's get gold?
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Sorry G but we literally exist in these forums to comment on changes. You post a change, people are going to comment on it. You post decently strong changes (which those appear to be), you will get strong comments.

    So accept the feedback or don’t, but no reason to get upset by it.

    In this case, there is a decently strong voice that says “consolidation of yields is great...except for farms”. Take that as you will.
     
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  5. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    I'd prefer to have jungle lumbermills get bonus gold (valuable rare woods) while those on forests getting bonus production (more commonly used as construction material); if you want a gameplay reason behind it, it also helps decide if you want quick chopping production or late production (jungle otoh are rarely chopped for yields), while having production and science on jungles by medieval looks a bit too much.

    Add one more to the 'you dared touch freshwater farming you must burn in Hell' global sentiment. If anything, I would techlock no-wheat, no-freshwater farming.

    Always happy to see generic yields toned down, villages are really too good (and will stay strong).
     
    Txurce likes this.
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Farms with fresh water can still be better, even with consolidated improvements on techs. There are several ways to do it, and G said that the changes are not complete, so I suspect that he plans on buffing fresh water farms from other places. It can be a simple +1 food when farms have access to fresh water always, or granaries may add +1 food to farms with fresh water, or something like that.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Well there doesn't seem to be consensus on merging the techs for farms, and there certainly isn't consensus for buffing farms in general.
     
  8. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I would prefer if throughout the game there would be a considerable advantage to having farms with freshwater access vs. farms without freshwater. Even in the modern times, I think it's easier/cheaper to irrigate farms closer to lakes/rivers as opposed to farms farther away from sources of fresh water.

    Other than that, I like the proposed changes!
     
    vyyt likes this.
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Not a buff. A replacement. Maybe I'm mistaken, but if farms with fresh water are to be better than non fresh water, and no distinction is made in buffs from technology, then they (farms with fresh water) have to be improved by anything else. Don't know. Maybe Agribussiness will improve only fresh water farms. Let G think how to put it all together, so we can comment on the whole proposal.
     
  10. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Yeah...like sci victories at turn 280. I'm thinking turn 450 would be a more reasonable time for a sci victory, with turn 400 being "early."
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This is a bit of a tangent, but just watching both my science games and here what other people say, I think the speed of science is more due to Great Scientists than any particular yield. Towards the end game you just generate so many of them.
     
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  12. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I will agree that Fresh Water should still have an advantage somewhere. Maybe that is just me locked in the mindset that Rivers should be better than ordinary tiles. I would also argue that is a slight nerf to Lakes, though nothing to say about helping Lakes.

    What reasons should players have for pursuing Rivers then? Civs like Songhai and Aztecs do have UBs that benefit from Rivers. Perhaps we should wait for more WIP details.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Not upset at all. Just like to avoid knee jerk reactions from users, as it’s not fun to have to repeatedly explain WIP. :)

    G
     
  14. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    Whiny Inept Programmer. :badcomp:
     
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  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Water mills and baths are really good benefits of river (or lake) settlement
     
  16. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Before either of those buildings are available, when things are really simple, farming near a river makes more sense than at maybe any other time in history. It would be great if the game would reflect this. But to do this at a point where there's not much else you can do as a player, puts river tiles at a premium, and "bad starts" become more common. I don't think there's an ideal solution.
     
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  17. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    I'm going to reiterate my opinion on villages (trading posts) from this thread: they already receive two major buffs in the industrial era - the doubling of the bonus yields for passing-over trade routes and another doubling of the bonus yields for being on roads when they become railroads.
    What I'm talking about:
    Spoiler :
    upload_2018-2-20_18-41-54.png

    I think they are alright without any tech buffs.

    Seeing as this is the right place and time I'd also like to express my favor towards farm buffing rivers. I like the flavor it brings and how it calls for adaptive playstyles.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It's possible. Make farms on fresh water start with +1 food, or make granaries give +1 food to farms on fresh water. Then, have a later building (aqueducts, groceries?) give +1 food to farms on non-fresh water. It's the same as before, but out of the tech tree.
     
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  19. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I would go in a direction like this -- but it will unbalance starts.
     
  20. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    Placing fresh water/non fresh water farm benefits on buildings seems like as reasonable an approach as any but granary is probably a bit early. Aqueduct for fresh water, grocery for non-fresh water feels like a more balanced pacing.

    I'll join the chorus in echoing I'd like to see farm yields being dependent on access to fresh water remain in some manner; it's canonical and just feels right. I don't think it's necessary for the other improvements; simplifying the tech tree is as good a reason as any to eliminate the distinctions.
     

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