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Fast, immersive, victory

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I have great respect for CIV players who role-play or play “immersive”. I am in constant awe of players who play efficiently and achieve victories below 140 turns (now 130, … 120 …). But neither suits me well.

    I want to play efficiently, so I have a clear goal and benchmark for success (i.e. the least turns possible), and because the problem solving of playing efficent is so much fun. But I don’t want to feel like I am gaming the computer or simply spamming cities, districts etc.. I want more complex gameplay (or even “narrative”) to emerge from my game play. I want reasons to use more of the various systems in the game - who doesn’t like building at least one aqueduct or a couple of forts?

    Two questions for the learned minds here: do others feel the same? If so, how do they balance those competing goals?

    My solution is to play as efficiently as I can, including early district placement, chopping, rushes, eureka hunting, not building stuff I don’t need (looking at you grainaries, mills and IZs), and capping housing (e.g. settling on a luxury or resource without freshwater). But I play with the following house rules: (1) emperor+, large map, "B-tier" Civ (mostly Vicky, but also Fred, Trajan, or Hysterically Heroic Harald); (2) cultural victory only (but all other victory conditions enabled); (3) 8 ages of pace; (4) no deliberate use of overflow, no more than 5 campus, soft-cap of 12 cities on my starting land mass; and (5) must found a religion (but can use captured cities’ holy sites to do it).

    It works... okay

    [edit for formatting]
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  2. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    The best way is probably to have a standard opening but with a primary goal in mind. Think of it like you are playing with custom made achievements. Or maybe pretend you are like the ai and have a agenda.

    The reason I say primary goal is because winning means you only have so much time to fulfill various criteria.

    Examples are like a gold themed religous civ that makes use of papal primacy. So it is a richer goal than say just I want to play a religion game " or a civ that relies exclusively on plunder and threats which may be more intresting than just warring."

    Or think of it like this. If you were to snap a few photos, what do you want your audience to see?
     
    bbbt likes this.
  3. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    I'd hate to break it to you but as the game is now it is very difficult unless you find extremely fast games immersive for some reason. (Which is quite impossible if you ask me because freedom of choice and immersion go hand in hand in a decision-based game. Unfortunately fastest victories always equates to most efficient choices which by default removes freedom altogther since most efficient choices are by definition narrow and exclusive unless developers make an effort to balance power in choices equally.)

    Regarding the lack of choice in relation to gameplay, just to give an example. Suppose you only do what is necessary, anything that doesn't contribute to faster victory times is immediately kicked out of the window.

    Anything that scales better with longer game times is automatically omitted.

    This means that nearly all wonders should not be built and most great people ignored. Even certain districts would be avoided like the plague. You will also have to forgo peace play because that really slows things down as well.

    If we are to include the abuses condoned as efficient play you probably have to forgo long term economic growth in favor of short term,fleeting benefits whose negative consequences don't have the time to be felt because you end the game early.

    It's quite difficult to have a blend of both because they are not just simple, one time decisions that decide the course of the game but the culmination of many choices made for a singular purpose. If you choose to go halfway for either side you end up having none of either because each requires an "all in" level of dedication to be truly effective. Dragging out a game past turn 200 with the efficient approach means you end up having to pay for the lack of long term investment for example.

    If you really want to find a balance then you will have to outline where your boundaries are regarding efficiency and immersion (which never should have been at odds with each other in the first place.) Would you try and recruit Isaac Newton even though the games ends before he actually makes a difference? Would you invest in a harbour eventhough the game ends before it pays off? Would you bother building theatre square districts when you can just invest in science and win more efficiently using seaside resorts?

    Of course, there is a distinction between non-optimal choices and outright wrong choices so please do make a clear distinction between the two. Immersive Game play doesn't equate to the false freedom of playing anyhow you want and still winning despite making terrible mistakes. It simply means you don't let the timer decide all your choices but rather what's fun for you, within the boundary of what is considered thoughtful play.

    For me I ignore speed entirely and just try to make my Civilization as powerful as possible in as many aspects as I can. Is it the most powerful way to victory? By the game's objective definition (Pun intended) no, because I'm not being optimally efficient. Is it the most powerful Civilization? Probably. Ideally the two should be one and the same as much as is possible, but that is far from the case right now. This works on Emperor but not on Deity because there's not much leeway to do anything immersive there.

    Which brings me to the next point, if you want more freedom to play the game then not playing on Deity/Higher Difficulties helps because your choices aren't as limited then. Don't get me wrong it doesn't mean you're less skilled, it just means you value freedom more than you value a false challenge imposed through inversed shackles.

    If you don't think the freedom to choose in a decision making game is necessary for immersive gameplay then that's a separate topic altogether. (No, illusory, powerless choices don't count as choices. And yes, I totally agree that the way I like to play is an illusory choice and I really don't like that.)

    Mind you though all strategies employed for the fastest victory won't work against an equally skilled opponent. In which case I would argue the short term approach is actually detrimental against humans.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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  4. LuckyAC

    LuckyAC Immortal

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    Well, I don't care about absolute victory time, just playing efficiently within whatever restraints I set, which at a minimum are 1. no capturing cities (since AI combat is so bad) and 2. no exploity things (overflow, etc.) Then, for any particular leader, I generally make sure I use its unique attributes in at least some way. Then again, I haven't played in months, so it's not entirely successful. I had some decent games, but I've done the different victory conditions on deity and experimented with most of the leaders, so not really anything else that interests me.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I play both styles and when you have played a lot of fast games the efficient aspect just bleeds over into your immersive game so much that you must take a stand somehow.
    My style of immersive game has always changed radically based on what I am doing or thinking at the time.
    The primary immersive rule I use is start no wars and take no cities apart from in peace deals. With this in place it can be quite challenging on Deity and often better off immortal or Emperor for an enjoyable game as the AI runaway will often just win before you can do anything.
    That's where my second immersive rule comes in... I set myself a target like 100 envoys is a favorite. I will play the game until I have 100 envoys and then look around the map like I was an alien looking at the earth and ask myself which civ looks the most impressive, not so much based on size but quality all round. Immersive is a personal thing
     
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  6. cvb

    cvb Prince

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    I love this approach! It is such a great thing, when you realize, you still have the ability to surprise yourself - makes you wonder, what else you can do, that you've forgotten about ...
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I love it so much it should be a VC or at least score should be based on quality not size
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    What is "immersive" is a necessarily arbitrary distinction and 100% dependent on player preferences.

    There are players who find immersion in planning out their micromanagement choices on spreadsheets.

    The game has defined victory conditions. Whether you optimize to pursue them or not is up to you.
     
  9. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    @acluewithout

    If you're the sort who enjoys the strategy in strategy games, then playing a strategy game badly is unlikely to lead to a satisfying experience. I think to achieve what you're looking for, you need to look at things in a completely different perspective -- e.g. to view Civ 6 as a sandbox game rather than a strategy game.

    (I don't think it makes for a very good sandbox game either)
     
  10. MAHRana

    MAHRana Prince

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    I think your main concern is shared by others, including myself, and (unless we are talking about scenarios) only Rhye's or Europa Universalis achieves something like this imo, with historical victory conditions, interesting triggers etc.
     

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