1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Fastest CV Guides - Gathering Storm

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by hatman5700, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. hatman5700

    hatman5700 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    So I am meticulously going through this outdated video for Rise & Fall
    https://www.bilibili.com/video/av21483951?p=2

    Trying to take notes and document the detailed 'expert' plays that are occuring during this and post my feedback. There are things outdated here (such as standard Rise & Fall Magnus + Overflow chopping), but I'd imagine there are still some core mechanics here that are probably not known to the greater populace of players here.

    I'm a masters starcraft player, tournament smash player, gladiator wow player, grand champion rocket league player, etc. I play competitive, and am posting these because in those games you must have intense knowledge of the mechanics to achieve greatness. In Civ 6 I have the utmost respect for feats, strategies & accomplishments of achieving these fast deity victories by notable members of the community & members of the chinese community. My goal here is to help break this down and have an ELI5 (explain like I'm 5 years old) style for the mechanics & tricks being utilized in these high level chinese strategy videos.

    Challenges:
    -I don't speak or read chinese, so I'm trying to just understand & document everything from the context of the video & game UI. It appears the chinese players have logged the greatest accomplishments in this regard, so study of these videos is critical.
    -There is GREAT discussion on some of these strategies, but not a consensus updated source for Gathering Storm, and even amongst Rise & Fall there was mention of things (i.e. 'Salted Fish'), but not the proper ELI5 documentation that I was looking for. I'm hoping to provide that as I dig deeper into the WHY and WHAT of these higher level strategies. I want it to be clear not only to the elite civ players that are famliar with all terminology, but also to the casual civ players to give an outline of some of the basics. I'm aware this will be impossible to fully communicate everything on a basic level regarding strategies that are so high-level and executed in an elite & precise fashion, but I do feel that this is an area where I can be of service to the community to help bridge the gap between the elite & the game basics, even if just a little.

    I'm only 50 turns into this review, having watched 2-3 other videos last year and trying to do a similar effort.

    I'll update this post as I get the granular detail, but I don't have all the answers yet. I understand that for some of these ABSOLUTE FASTEST records, there are ideal starts with ideal civs with pre-research maps etc. I'm less interested in the perfect map + perfect start + turn by turn perfection of pre-research knowledge, and more interested in the decision making that constitutes the 'perfect' strategy.
    i.e.
    -rough time milestones you want (x culture by turn 10, y culture by turn 25, Drama and Poetry by turn 36)
    -general build order for first city
    -general build order for second city
    -what EXACT wonders to target & when
    --how many chops you can expect to need for pyramids + oracle (I know these are critical)
    -what order of governors to get
    -what order of district to build and in what city
    -what civics path to take on the civics tree
    -what tech tree path to take on the tech tree
    -etc.

    I'd hope that by gathering & detailing this information, we could help the community achieve strong results if they have the interest to do so. Also if the target of a perfect game is 50~turns with perfect start + religion relics etc, and 80~turns with Deity Peaceful culture on pre-research maps, I'd hope to have a guide that allows for t100-130~ victories almost guaranteed regardless of start (to a degree of course, some starts are horrible). I'm interested in starts where you don't meet 2 cultural city states in the first 2 turns, and how does this impact the cultural victory. And defining the breakpoints of what is required as far as a 'acceptable' start to obtain a victory in x time (i.e. denying great writers is a big part of the strategy, so need to know if this can be done... testing with cultural city states met = 0 vs. cultural cs met = 1 vs. cultural cs met = 2. Similarly with luxury resource providing cultural = 0, =1, =2 early on, etc.)

    I will update this as I research.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
    sa1vy likes this.
  2. hatman5700

    hatman5700 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    My first reply to this thread is for QUESTIONs. My first question is Science Overflow?

    I've currently noticed in this playthrough: https://www.bilibili.com/video/av21483951?p=2
    that Roguestar is letting techs in the techtree get to 1 turn left, and then swapping them. Later completing them for what appears to be some sort of science overflow?

    Can one of the experts @Victoria @Boyan_Sun help explain what exactly this mechanic is?
    -What is this achieving?
    -What is science overflow, if it exists?
    -Why is this faster than normally getting the tech?
    -Please note I'm not talking about the boost/eureka mechanic which awards 40% of the required science for a given tech, specifically talking about stalling something at 1 turn, and returning to it later for what seems like some sort of science overflow advantage?
    -Is this still present in Gathering Storm?
     
  3. hsj

    hsj Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    Sometimes you research a civic/tech until the eureka can take care of the rest of the cost because you know you will get it down the line. This is called civic/tech blocking. There are a few reasons to do this, one of which is the fact that finished civics/techs increase district hammer cost. Another reason is that unlocking certain tech/civics too early can unlock districts, and unlocking districts without building an appropriate amount will rob you of a chance at getting discounted district placements.

    This is still present in gathering storm. if i'm mistaken in what you're referring to, you can provide a timestamp for when it happens and i'll translate what he's saying into english.
     
  4. hsj

    hsj Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    as for the impact of starts on victory timing, it's really important.

    a lof the min-maxed maps you see roguestar playing is provided by his viewers, and generally have okay resources and land + some form of early flat culture that's easily accessed (whether city state or natural wonder)
     
  5. hatman5700

    hatman5700 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Thanks for the hasty reply! I think you may have answered both my questions, although I'm familiar with the concept of getting a tech or civic to roughly 60% completion, and then letting the boost from respective eureka/inspiration bring it to 100% (i.e. bringing Craftsmanship to 60%, improving 3 tiles with builder to get inspiration boost, and having it complete mid-turn from the boost).

    I was more looking at when Roguestar stops a tech at 1 turn left, and purposely does not complete it. I'm guessing this is related to the district costs you mentioned - a tactic I don't think I was taking into account! So this is a perfect example of the detail I'm hoping to capture for strategy & tactics. Is there any other reasons to stop a tech?

    Example of this was on part 2: https://www.bilibili.com/video/av21483951/?p=2
    41:26/51:38
    Currency is stopped at 1 turn, and instead he goes for Wheel tech.
     
  6. hsj

    hsj Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    The next district he places is a campus in the capital, but there is already another being built in another city so i'm assuming that one (already being built) was discounted already. which leads me to believe he is simply reducing the hammer cost increase due to finished civic/techs by blocking currency. could be wrong though, i haven't watched that series in a long time.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,408
    This is a very important thing to know for both science and civics when getting a little more advanced and looking at fast science victories and the like.
    Overflow is good but bad things happen, it is not an exploit but a design 'feature'.

    So a simple example... I have 20 science left on a tech and am making 300 science per turn. At the end of the turn the tech finished and I choose a new tech which then has the 280 overflow assigned to it. All working well... Then I pillage a mine for 100 science. This removes the 280 and applies the 100. (yes!)
    You may have noticed the science progress bar go a bit weird when this happens but not have known what is was.

    Now we have a scientist next to 3 mountains and activate it which gives 3 x 250 science. Ever found it seems like it is not giving you what you want?... well if your tech was worth 1000 science it will apply 750 fine.... but if your tech has 100 left on it then 150 overflows but is then removed by the next 250.

    And finally up to the nasty one, a moon landing. I am making 1000 science a turn and land on the moon. This gives me 10,000 culture as overflow which is awesome and I can spend the next few turns finishing quite a few civics turn after turn due to the overflow.... but.... If I get an inspiration or a pillage of a quarry it will reset it and I will lose all that beautiful culture.

    At least culture resets do not affect science and vice versa.
    So the overflow is what goes into the next turn but life can be cruel to overflow.

    Yes, this is simply avoiding finishing something you do not need for the sake of district cost but hopefully you now appreciate that later you will finish it and have larger overflows you may lose... so you really have to be careful of when you pillage, inspire or eureek.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  8. hsj

    hsj Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    as far as i know overflow clearing happens when you don't have a "sink". read this on the civ 6 tieba.

    the rule seems to be this:

    lets say you have a city construction A that can be chopped to finish and generate overflow. you chop it and overflow gets carried over to the next project B. perfect.

    however, during the same turn if you chop another resource and THAT also finishes the project B, the overflow from A is cleared. any lump value gained by chopping or pillaging etc. works this way as far as chinese players can tell.

    i haven't really tested this out, but this seems to force players to stick magnus inside a city for multiple turns to not waste overflow. granted there are some cases when overflow clearing is worth the sacrifice for earlier magnus reassignment.
     
  9. greenblade

    greenblade Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    Some information I gathered:
    - As he mentioned in the video, this is for recording setting, as he knew the map in advance and had played it a couple of times before.
    - He has played Sweden in GS using the same general idea for CV. He got it at T111 and called it a colossal failure. It was a very good map, but he hadn't played it before. (Video)
    - Someone played China in GS and won by T70. This should be very close to current record if not the record. Unfortunately, there was no video.

    On a side note, I found RogueStar's series video on general strategy (link) more inspiring to me. It was based on his theory of "3 cities by T30". It means start with 3 cities before Ancestral Hall, and build two settlers by T30. The video was for R&F but it seems he plans to update them for GS.

    Of course, this strategy is for peace playing on Deity. It requires very good maps.

    Here is a detailed explain about chopping/overflow feature/bug in Chinese (link).

    Brief summary in English:

    First assume you start building a new item without any prior overflow:
    - If the chop doesn't finish current item, all policy/ability bonus are applied.
    - If the base chop value (without policy/ability) can not finish current item, but with bonus it can, the chop finishes current item. NO overflow.
    - If the base value is more than finish the item. Then the chop finishes the item and remaining base value overflows (as if there were no policy/ability).

    When there are previous overflows, things get more complicated. Let's assume prior overflow value is A, current item cost is B, current chop value is C:
    - If A+C < B, then everything is good. Just like the previous scenario.
    - If A+C > B and C < B (you can't finish current item without prior overflow), then current item is finished. NO overflow;
    - If C >= B, then current item is finished. The new overflow is C - B (you lost A).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2019
    hsj likes this.
  10. hsj

    hsj Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    that makes more sense, thanks!
     
  11. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    256
    Gender:
    Male
    More simpler than you think. That is just for -20% cost. Notice that in ancient era, currency cost 144, but in classic era it cost 120.
    Assume in T48 the world will enter classic era, you produce 10 science per turn. In T46 Currency is 143/144, if you not change it, in T47 it will be 153/144 (finished), you just get 9 overflow.
    But If you switch tech then switch back in T47, in T48 it will be 153/120 (finished), you get 33 science overflow now, more or less better than 9.
    What if you switch later? It will be 143/120 but not finished unless you switch to it and click next turn button.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,408
    @Boyan_Sun good point tx.
    Is there anything else about culture/science overflow I have missed?

    The fastest games are based on luck, not skill. However GOTM where everyone plays the same map is a measurement but you are not allowed to replay turns.
    I personally love knowing the mechanics but prefer to play fast which means mistakes and less micro.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  13. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,968
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Fixed it for you :) To pull it of you do need to know game mechanics very well, just sayin' :)
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,408
    :lol: The Chinese are the ones with the records and they say game 8.
     
  15. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,968
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Lets see if I understand the GS overflow correctly:

    Production overflow:
    Lets say I have an item that costs 100 production and I also have a 50% card for that item. My production is 20.
    It would go like this:
    Turn 1: 20 base + 10 card (30/100)
    Turn 2: 20 base + 10 card (60/100)
    Turn 3: 20 base + 10 card (90/100)
    Turn 4: 20 base + 0 card (110/100).
    Result: item complete + 10 overflow.

    *if I remove the bonus card on Turn 2, card is already applied to turns 1 and 2, but:
    Turn 3: 20 base (80/100)
    Turn 4: 20 base (100/100); item complete, no overflow.


    Chopping overflow logic (same item as above):
    Invested 60/100.
    If chop value is 20, card adds 10, new value is 90/100.
    If chop value is 30, card would add up to 15, but actually adds only 10 to reach 100/100. No overflow.
    If chop value is 40, card adds nothing as new value is 100/100, no overflow.
    If chop value is 100, card adds nothing, as new value is over 100/100, the new total is 160/100, overflow is 60.

    Tech era overflow
    Whenever classical era reached, treat it as if there was an automatic card that states "all ancient era techs now get a 20 % discount"

    Is this correct?

    EDIT: Did a brief test that is confusing me.
    City screen clearly states my production base is 38, and I added in the 50% to all cav policy card. The new production is actually 62.5 (varying 62 and 63 between turns) and not 38*1.5=57 as I imagined. I don't know where the extra 5.5 (5 to 6) is coming from.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,408
    Sadly production is not that simple.
    The science culture 20% is right but you have to switch on the era turn to get the extra, a bit micro for me but good to know. The overflow losses I mentioned are also important.
    Production overflow was dealt with well in civ IV but they have made a mess of it here. There are 3 scenarios... I’ll drag out the post, it is easier to read it all there.
     
  17. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,968
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    See the edit above as well, that part is confusing as hell. Perhaps I should've stuck to slingers at turn 30 for testing purposes, not cav in a well developed city. :)
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,408
    @Bibor please read this thread Is chopping overflow overcorrected?
    The Chinese do an awful to of precise testing so it is correct.
    The 5.5-6 may be dues to an extra pop or a pop moving plot? Seems about the right amount.
     
  19. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,968
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    If I’m reading that post right, we are saying the same thing! :)

    I still don’t know where the 5,5 is coming from. No, citizens are not growing or moving around. Consistent +38 displayed every turn.

    EDIT: As Boyan Sun says, the formula is the same as in Civ4, so it's always better to chop items that don't have bonuses (like granary) into items that do have a bonus (like settlers) Colonization, rather than vice versa.
    Thus, if you have agoge, but not Colonization, chop the settler into a slinger.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,408
    Yes, I guess you were. Sorry. I missed your subtleties, been a long day.
    Chop the granary into a settler but do not chop again the next turn, it’s a bit yuk and messy.
     

Share This Page