Favorite Civic: Police State?!

[dragodon64]

Does anyone else think its silly and simple-minded to give the three big warriors, Genghis, Montezuma and Shaka the favorite civic of Police State? That concept didn't really even exist at their time, though some arguments could be made.

Montezuma seems to me to have some obvious alternatives: Vassalage- the Aztec empire/alliance/whatever you want to call it was based of a tributary system; Theocracy- those religious sacrifices weren't optional and if things like the inquisition get Isabella's favorite civic to be theocracy, then it should definitely apply to Montezuma.

Genghis Khan has a case for PS; he supported mass loyalty and execution of traitors. However I think his unification of Mongolia is much closer to Nationhood.

Shaka... I don't know too much about, but once again his unification of Zulu tribes seems closer to Nationhood than anything else.

Also, I know there are lots of other wierd favorites out there (Gandhi's favorite isn't Pacifism? and since when have the Iceni Celts practiced democracy...) but this one just bugs me everytime I go to the info screen.

 

[mtr12]

Well, Monty and Shaka and Genghis end up adopting Vassalage anyways because they're obsessed with killing things.

I think it has something to do with xml: because it's somehow easy to influence harder to influence appropriate government choices, so favorite civics are a convenient way of doing so.

 

[Dryhad]

Well in the vanilla game you'll remember that almost everyone's favourite civic was something Government. Oh sure, there were the occasional exceptions like Saladin (Theocracy) or Mao (State Property) but I think the most imaginative they ever got was Mansa Musa (Free Market). They got their act together in Warlords and BTS, but there are still remnants where, presumably, they couldn't think of anything better.

I'm rather more irritated by the predominance of Hereditary Rule. It's not historically inaccurate or anything (after all, those who favour the civic were hereditary monarchs) it's just it seems like such a cop out to define these leaders purely by the government that gave them power. To amend this, I suggest changing Joao and Catherine's favourite civics to Serfdom, because both were involved in incidents involving serfs (and, needless to say, were not on the side of the serfs) and because Serfdom is one of the few non-starting civics that isn't favoured by anyone (for this reason, I also support moving Gandhi to Pacifism).

 

[dragodon64]

Completely agree with you, dryhad, on the hereditary rule stuff. And the worst part is, HR is technically correct for them, so its hard to really complain. I didn't know about Joao, but I also wanted Catherine to be shifted to Serfdom.

I also support Gandhi to Pacifism, and Asoka to Free Religion.

Another one I disagree with is Roosevelt and Mercantilism... he certainly didn't shut the country off from foreign trade, though his policies were domestic oriented. But I really can't think of a good substitute: Nationhood? Bureaucracy? or go with a typically American civic like Rep, US or FS?

 

[Jazzmail]

Those aren't the worst yet.

Representation for Pericles? Napoleon? Augustus?

Augustus is the end of the republic and the beginning of hereditary rule and a very weak senate.
Napoleon crowned himself emperor.
Pericles didn't even have a notion of representation.

Churchill would make a far better candidate for representation than those 3. He didn't particularly like democracy, but Britain before the war, was the least militarised nation compared to continental europe. Nationhood as in militaristic/nationalistic doesn't fit here.

 

[Shylock]

It's a game, don't expect it to be historically accurate.

Americans weren't around in 4000 BC either.

 

[Ramesses]

It's a game, don't expect it to be historically accurate.

But you see, the problem with that argument is that Civ is meant to be historically accurate whenever it can without disrupting the main game mechanics.

The way I see it, Firaxis is obligated to do one of three things:

1.) Make all of the Favorite Civics more accurate.
2.) Eliminate Favorite Civics.
3.) Randomize and hide Favorite Civics.

Either go totally realistic, place no restrictions of realism whatsoever (4000 B.C. America), or eliminate the concept altogether.

Naturally, most of us would prefer Choice 1.

EDIT: Better yet, let's give each leader a favorite civic for each category.

Gandhi: Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation, Environmentalism, Free Religion.
Julius Caesar: Representation, Bureaucracy, Emancipation, Free Market, Theocracy.
Washington: Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Serfdom, Free Market, Free Religion.

 

[Joshua368]

The main thing that bugs me isn't lack of realism, but how poorly ballanced and lopsided the civics are, some just get way more love than others. Even some entire categories (labor!) are almost entirely ignored. Here's how they are split...

GOVERNMENT
Hereditary Rule (8)
Representation (5)
Police State (3)
Universal Suffrage (3)

LEGAL
Vassalage (4)
Bureaucracy (4)
Nationhood (3)
Free Speech (1)

LABOR
Caste System (1)
Emancipation (1)
Slavery (0)
Serfdom (0)

ECONOMY
Mercantilism (2)
Free Market (2)
State Property (2)
Environmentalism (1)

RELIGION
Organized Religion (4)
Theocracy (4)
Free Religion (4)
Pacifism (0)

Hereditary Rule is obviously way too lopsided... aside from that Government, Legal and Religion are fairly well-ballanced (except for Free Speech and Pacifism, which need more) and Economy and expecially Labor could use more civs.

 

[Big_I]

I tend to disagree with people on the idea of changing Gandhi to pacifism. Yes he practiced non-violent civil disobedience, but wasn't he doing it to achieve a higher goal. If I were to change it, it would be emancipation, especially because one of the other civics in the labor category is caste system, which was one of the things he was trying to dispose of, along with British rule of India. Gandhi was more concerned about his Dalite brethren and obtaining a free voice for his people than he was about just being a peaceful. Being peaceful was a means to achieve an ends.

Emancipation would be a great civic for him, but considering that just about everyone adopts emancipation in order to not receive the unhappiness (Joshua368, that's probably why the labor category was so ignored), I would leave him at Universal Suffrage.

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

I usually change Gandhi's civic to Pacifism so I can mod in Nelson Mandela and give him Universal Suffrage.

And of course Representation fits Caesar, Augustus and Pericles. In the case of Pericles, I believe it represents democracy in Athens. And in the case of the Emperors, hey, what does the S in SPQR stand for?

Hereditary Rule would be more suiting for an emperor that abused his power, sorta like a Caligula or Nero.

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

Here's how they are split...

GOVERNMENT
Hereditary Rule (8)
Representation (5)
Police State (3)
Universal Suffrage (3)

LEGAL
Vassalage (4)
Bureaucracy (4)
Nationhood (3)
Free Speech (1)

LABOR
Caste System (1)
Emancipation (1)
Slavery (0)
Serfdom (0)

ECONOMY
Mercantilism (2)
Free Market (2)
State Property (2)
Environmentalism (1)

RELIGION
Organized Religion (4)
Theocracy (4)
Free Religion (4)
Pacifism (0)

I've got some suggestions for new leaders to have the ignored civics.

Environmentalism would be good for Theodore Roosevelt.

Like I mentioned Pacifism would be good for Gandhi. Logan of the Iroquois/Native Americans would be good too.

George III of the English screams Mercantilism.

For Slavery... Pol Pot of the Khmer. And Jefferson Davis if anybody adds the Confederacy.

Serfdom would fit Ivan the Terrible perfectly.

Caste System would logically fit an Indian leader like Chandragupta. Also, if anybody adds the Afrikaners, it would fit P.W. Botha, to represent apartheid.

Free Market is a quintessential American civic. I can't tell you who's a shoo-in for this trait, but his name rhymes with Schmonald Schmeagan.

Emancipation would be good for Dom Pedro II of Brazil. He did free the slaves in Brazil after all.

State Property... another popular civic when modding. Lots of leaders west of the Iron Curtain.

Free Speech would go good with Gorbachev of the Russians.

 

[dragodon64]

Free Market is a quintessential American civic. I can't tell you who's a shoo-in for this trait, but his name rhymes with Schmonald Schmeagan.

OH. MY. GOD. You don't mean secret President Donald Heagen?! The one who made America develop intergalactic instant messenger and nuclear powered toothbrushes while championing the free market?!?!

 

[Dryhad]

Completely agree with you, dryhad, on the hereditary rule stuff. And the worst part is, HR is technically correct for them, so its hard to really complain.

No it isn't! Just look at the favoured civics in Vanilla. Do you want to say that those were the best options, just because they were "technically correct"?

There are, after all, five civic categories. Presumably every government in history can be expressed through those (they probably can't, but we assume they can for the sake of argument). So by this reasoning any given leader has at least 5 different civics that are "technically correct". That doesn't make it a good choice from either a gameplay point of view (obviously, given even the current setup) or a flavour point of view (just because someone was a hereditary monarch doesn't mean they wanted to be, or would have been in another situation).

I also support Gandhi to Pacifism, and Asoka to Free Religion.

Uh, Asoka is Free Religion.

Another one I disagree with is Roosevelt and Mercantilism... he certainly didn't shut the country off from foreign trade, though his policies were domestic oriented. But I really can't think of a good substitute: Nationhood? Bureaucracy? or go with a typically American civic like Rep, US or FS?

This is where the existing civics kind of break down. Roosevelt definitely should have an economic civic, but the appropriate one isn't in the game.

 

[Jazzmail]

And of course Representation fits Caesar, Augustus and Pericles.

No disagreement about Julius Ceasar here (which is why i didn't mention him), GJ was very much part of the system for a time, before he became dictator for life.

Augustus however turned the senate into a powerless bunch and the emperor (himself) had the power. He's not the man for representation as he broke it.

In the case of Pericles, I believe it represents democracy in Athens.

Democracy in Athens was direct and without representatives. It's not Representation.