Favorite Civilization Attribute?

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I was just curious about which attributes you find most useful

I like religious because of no anarchy, but for me it really depends on what kind of map I'm on or what I feel like

you can only vote for 2

 

[Opies]

indi and agri of course. my 2 favs.

 

[death505]

i like ind and scientific

 

[Nergal]

Agricultural has to be the most powerful in the game. Just for its growth ability

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

It really depepends on the game type and the map, archipelago and colonization maps favor seafearing and comercial, while Pangea fovors expansionist and militaristic, and continents don't favor any particular atribute

I hate spending 6-8 turns in anarchy in industrial or modern times when 6-8 turns means a lot, thats the main reason I choose religious, building temples and cathedrals quicker is nice too

Scietific is good because you immediately get a free tech once you advance, it might not seem like a lot but in industrial/modern it is very useful

obviously I'm the only one who feels this way

if I had to choose a 3rd it would be industrious

 

[Bucephalus]

I hate spending 6-8 turns in anarchy in industrial or modern times when 6-8 turns means a lot, thats the main reason I choose religious, building temples and cathedrals quicker is nice too

You will find that most higher-level players revolt once to Republic and stay there, and they will not ordinarily build temples or cathedrals. Given that, one could argue that Religious is the least useful trait.

 

[Nergal]

Temples and Cathedrals just are not worthwhile normally. Markets and grabbing luxuries gives way more happiness.

 

[Ataxerxes]

You will find that most higher-level players revolt once to Republic and stay there, and they will not ordinarily build temples or cathedrals. Given that, one could argue that Religious is the least useful trait.

Thanks. It's good to know I do one thing most higher-level players do. I learned that on this forum.

I think Ag is the strongest trait, but my favorites are Industrious and Commericial. I think these two rank just behind Agricultural as the best traits. I'm most comfortable playing France. I voted Ag and Commecial as the best. Commercial gives you more core cities and more semi-core, besides the extra commerce.

 

[timerover51]

I voted for Seafaring, since I only play on continent and archipelago maps. My usual civilization is the Dutch, so I have a combination of Seafaring and Agricultural. I do like the Agricultural trait as well.

 

[dhokarena56]

Probably industrious, since it's very useful to have a well-developed core earlier in the game. And once you get to railroads, you're gonna love being Industrious.

Quick question: the Commercial attribute is said to reduce corruption. Does it also reduce waste? And by how much is it reducing corruption?

 

[Ataxerxes]

Probably industrious, since it's very useful to have a well-developed core earlier in the game. And once you get to railroads, you're gonna love being Industrious.

Quick question: the Commercial attribute is said to reduce corruption. Does it also reduce waste? And by how much is it reducing corruption?

Commercial trait reduces both. I'm not sure how much of a reduction it is, but I do notice it.

I like Industrious, but don't understand what's special about railroads. By that time, I usually have a lot of workers and laying rails goes pretty fast. I think Industrious is more valuable early, where you need fewer workers to do the work. After my cities reach size 12, then I don't really have to pay the population penalty to produce more (regrow to 12 fast).

 

[Fredgerd]

Commercial without a second thought. Seafaring is my favorite combination with it since it just adds to the insane level of commerce. Commerce can of course be turned into science, food and shields (the latter two by paying citizens and using the entertainment bar in your domestic adviser instead of turning laborers into entertainers).

 

[Ataxerxes]

Commercial without a second thought. Seafaring is my favorite combination with it since it just adds to the insane level of commerce. Commerce can of course be turned into science, food and shields (the latter two by paying citizens and using the entertainment bar in your domestic adviser instead of turning laborers into entertainers).

Commercial is my favorite as well. Don't forget the lower levels of waste and corruption. And the head start on a Republic slingshot.

I'd rather combine Agricultural. That gives you higher levels of everything. The only trait that can make desert cities worth anything.

On an islands map, you've got the winning combo. Waste and corruption are usually at their worst there.

 

[Calis]

All I am writing is from the perspective of a HOF gamer!!

For quick expansion, Agricultural is the most powerful trait without any doubt. I almost always play AGR civs (usually Iroquios or Celts).

Only in fast research games, Scientific is essential.

Industrious is also always nice to have. That's why I like to use Persia in fast reseach maps of smaller size (Diplo and SS games).

On low difficulty maps (up to Monarch) the Expansionist trait is extremely usefull for gaining techs. On maps from standard size upwards you usually can pop all AA techs from huts. That's why Russia is very often used for diplo and SS victories.

Commercial is usefull for the Republic slingshot on high difficulty levels (demigod and higher), due to Alphabet as starting tech.

Religious is usefull for culture (mainly 100K) games, due to cheap temples and cathedrals. And it might happen that you switch governments twice (1. Republic and later Feudalism). And the one turns switch is very good in this case. This makes the Celts a very popular civ in 100K games.

Seafaring is very map depending. On arch and continent maps it is very usefull of course. On pangea maps is is has very limited use. On very high difficulty levels the Byzantines are often used, as people don't want to have Deity or Sid AIs on the same continent (due to a horribly fast tech pace and horrible numbers of units). Also here Alphabet as a starting tech is extremely useful for the Republic slingshot.

I barely use Militaristic civs. Of course cheaper barracks and more elite promotions are nice to have, but usually not essential.

You see that EVERY trait has it's use, but as a summary, I regard Agricultural as my favorite.

 

[Lanzelot]

Excellent summary, Calis!

A couple of questions/comments:

1. Only in fast research games, Scientific is essential.
   Wouldn't Scientific be good for 100K as well? Or is Agricultural more important? Might be an interesting experiment to compare a rel+agri with a rel+sci 100K game.
   
2. Commercial is usefull for the Republic slingshot
   The Commercial bonus sets in only after the city reaches size 7. Do you really have that many size 7 cities that early, that it makes a significant difference for the slingshot?? Or is it only because they start with Alphabet?
   
   In my games usually the capital is the SF, so doesn't go beyond 6.5, and all the other towns take too long to grow to 7. By the time I have a significant number of size 7 cities, the slingshot is already achieved...
   
   In contrast I've experimented with Seafaring a bit a while ago, and at the moment I think that this gives the best shot at the slingshot on the higher difficulty levels: the bonus commerce is smaller, but sets in immediately, and if your capital is located at the mouth of a river such that the river and the coastline form a kind of T-shape, you can usually get the capital and 2-3 core towns on the river and 3-4 more core towns on the coast, each of them giving you one extra commerce. (Except for the capital, where the despo penalty kills it.)
   
3. On pangea maps is is has very limited use.
   I think that Seafaring is very powerful on Pangea as well, at least on the high difficulty levels: the 3-movement curraghs get contacts faster than scouts, and goody huts are not important, because they only contain barbs anyway...
   
4. I barely use Militaristic civs
   In Vanilla and PTW, Militaristic is very useful for 20k games, because in those versions MGLs were still able to rush Great Wonders.

 

[Calis]

A couple of questions/comments:
[*]Only in fast research games, Scientific is essential.
Wouldn't Scientific be good for 100K as well? Or is Agricultural more important? Might be an interesting experiment to compare a rel+agri with a rel+sci 100K game.

I am not such an expert on 100K games, what you mention is the question Babylon vs. Celts. Of course the advantage of Babylon is that 4 culture buildings are 50% building cost. But i think evemtually the AGRI trait is more important for the extreme expanding demands. But sure, the SCI trait is also helpful for 100K games. But looking at the HOF tables, shows taht the Celts are very popular for this kind of game.

[*]Commercial is usefull for the Republic slingshot
The Commercial bonus sets in only after the city reaches size 7. Do you really have that many size 7 cities that early, that it makes a significant difference for the slingshot?? Or is it only because they start with Alphabet?

In my games usually the capital is the SF, so doesn't go beyond 6.5, and all the other towns take too long to grow to 7. By the time I have a significant number of size 7 cities, the slingshot is already achieved...

It's just because of Alphabet. But I think the lower curruption also applies to smaller towns, no?

In contrast I've experimented with Seafaring a bit a while ago, and at the moment I think that this gives the best shot at the slingshot on the higher difficulty levels: the bonus commerce is smaller, but sets in immediately, and if your capital is located at the mouth of a river such that the river and the coastline form a kind of T-shape, you can usually get the capital and 2-3 core towns on the river and 3-4 more core towns on the coast, each of them giving you one extra commerce. (Except for the capital, where the despo penalty kills it.)

Early on you get a nice commerce bonus for river site seafaring towns, yes. That is definately right. But if you have a large map and need 50 turns for writing anyway, it does not make much difference.

[*]On pangea maps is is has very limited use.
I think that Seafaring is very powerful on Pangea as well, at least on the high difficulty levels: the 3-movement curraghs get contacts faster than scouts, and goody huts are not important, because they only contain barbs anyway...

For this purpose it's usefull, yes.

[*]I barely use Militaristic civs
In Vanilla and PTW, Militaristic is very useful for 20k games, because in those versions MGLs were still able to rush Great Wonders.
[/LIST]

You are right, but as I exclusively play C3C, I simply forgot about that.

 

[CKS]

Wouldn't Scientific be good for 100K as well? Or is Agricultural more important? Might be an interesting experiment to compare a rel+agri with a rel+sci 100K game.

In Conquests, Scientific isn't nearly as good as Agricultural for 100K. It isn't quite as good as Religious. Having recently tried 100K with Sumeria, I would say that the Celts are significantly better than Sumeria, but that Sumeria is significantly better than Babylon. The reason is that you want the ToA, so you get free temples, and it expires with education. You will never build universities (assuming you go the usual way - ToA and Feudalism), and you will pop-rush like crazy.

(In PTW or vanilla, the 100K problem is significantly different - no agricultural civs, no ToA, no Feudalism, no SGL - and none of this applies.)

If religious: You get cheap temples (of little use, as the ToA gives free ones) and cheap cathedrals (nice, especially after you know gunpowder so you can use muskets as an intermediate step in rushing). Short anarchies mean you could revolt twice (republic, then feudalism) if you wanted (I don't think it is worth it), but even if not, since you don't gain culture in anarchy, this is helpful.

If not religious: expensive cathedrals are a pain, as there is no 140 shield build available: you have to have 4 citizens remaining with 120 shields in the bin to rush it. They cost an extra 4 citizens, but the lack of an intermediate build means that you must have an additional extra citizen that doesn't get sacrificed.

If scientific: You get cheap libraries (nice) and cheap universities (useless). You have better chances for SGLs - since you want both pyramids and ToA, this is nice. It is of less value if you are going to start a new game if you don't get a SGL immediately.

If not scientific: expensive libraries cost 2 citizens more than cheap ones - not a big deal. Without ToA, universities would be a problem.

If agricultural: You get extra food. This lets you expand faster (nice, especially on lower levels where the AI won't help you). More importantly, your population grows more quickly, so you can pop-rush sooner. Growing in 7 turns instead of 10 gets every improvement a lot earlier - it takes 30% fewer turns to get your buildings done. This also gives more buildings that double their cpt. Of course, if a town has more food available, the extra food from being agricultural doesn't help as much, but you will have many towns where the food supply is somewhat limited.

 

[Raliuven]

I only have PTW, but my vote was for Industrious. Since I don't have some of the traits under discussion, it is hard to compare, but I will lay down my reasons anyway as food for thought.

Agriculture sounds like a great trait, no argument there. Growth=power.

Against the others, I prefer Industrious because you start with 2 workers right away - or at least the equivalent of 2 workers. And each time your produce a worker, you are actually getting 2 workers. For me, that is a great multiplier trait and it is handy for most of the game. This power allows your citizens to work on improved tiles most of the time, which in my eyes is the greatest boost to your growth/power.

Every trait has its uses, true, but couple Industrious and Comercial and you seem to have a very good synergy. Low corruption cities with citizens working on early improved tiles is a powerhouse. Using workers to lay down roads to new settling sites to save your settler the wasted movement turns is also a boost.

Even in PTW, I do not prefer Militaristic civs. I don't need that many barracks. The reduced leaders can be a pain, but hopefully your industrious/commercial civ can just build its wonders and armies and buy everything else.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I only have PTW, but my vote was for Industrious. Since I don't have some of the traits under discussion, it is hard to compare, but I will lay down my reasons anyway as food for thought.

Agriculture sounds like a great trait, no argument there. Growth=power.

Against the others, I prefer Industrious because you start with 2 workers right away - or at least the equivalent of 2 workers. And each time your produce a worker, you are actually getting 2 workers. For me, that is a great multiplier trait and it is handy for most of the game. This power allows your citizens to work on improved tiles most of the time, which in my eyes is the greatest boost to your growth/power.

Every trait has its uses, true, but couple Industrious and Comercial and you seem to have a very good synergy. Low corruption cities with citizens working on early improved tiles is a powerhouse. Using workers to lay down roads to new settling sites to save your settler the wasted movement turns is also a boost.

Even in PTW, I do not prefer Militaristic civs. I don't need that many barracks. The reduced leaders can be a pain, but hopefully your industrious/commercial civ can just build its wonders and armies and buy everything else.

I agree, Agricultural is the strongest trait most of the time. It isn't my FAVORITE but I think it's usually the best.

In C3C, workers only work 50% faster. Initially, when workers were 100% faster, IND was just incredible. and addictive.

I agree regarding barracks. If I can get ahead, I'll build Sun Tzu and not pay the maintenance for all the barracks. I've always loved the Comm/Ind combination of France, even if Agricultural is stronger.

 

[del62]

In Conquests, Scientific isn't nearly as good as Agricultural for 100K. It isn't quite as good as Religious. Having recently tried 100K with Sumeria, I would say that the Celts are significantly better than Sumeria, but that Sumeria is significantly better than Babylon. The reason is that you want the ToA, so you get free temples, and it expires with education. You will never build universities (assuming you go the usual way - ToA and Feudalism), and you will pop-rush like crazy.

I agree that the Celts are the best, that agricultural trait giving the extra food in city means that you can run a pop rushing city on two irrigated grass.

(In PTW or vanilla, the 100K problem is significantly different - no agricultural civs, no ToA, no Feudalism, no SGL - and none of this applies.)

Yep, C3C is the way for 100k

If religious: You get cheap temples (of little use, as the ToA gives free ones) and cheap cathedrals (nice, especially after you know gunpowder so you can use muskets as an intermediate step in rushing). Short anarchies mean you could revolt twice (republic, then feudalism) if you wanted (I don't think it is worth it), but even if not, since you don't gain culture in anarchy, this is helpful.

IMO Best statergy is republic for expansion stage, then feudalism when you are getting the cities you need, cash rushing settlers, means no unhappiness, for later stages.

If not religious: expensive cathedrals are a pain, as there is no 140 shield build available: you have to have 4 citizens remaining with 120 shields in the bin to rush it. They cost an extra 4 citizens, but the lack of an intermediate build means that you must have an additional extra citizen that doesn't get sacrificed.

Cathedral at 160 sheilds is a big rush, totally agree, which is why religous is so important.

If scientific: You get cheap libraries (nice) and cheap universities (useless). You have better chances for SGLs - since you want both pyramids and ToA, this is nice. It is of less value if you are going to start a new game if you don't get a SGL immediately.

I am no expert on really high levels but on emporor its a struggle to build TOA and Pyramids. So it becomes a different set of problems/

If not scientific: expensive libraries cost 2 citizens more than cheap ones - not a big deal. Without ToA, universities would be a problem.

Agreed

If agricultural: You get extra food. This lets you expand faster (nice, especially on lower levels where the AI won't help you). More importantly, your population grows more quickly, so you can pop-rush sooner. Growing in 7 turns instead of 10 gets every improvement a lot earlier - it takes 30% fewer turns to get your buildings done. This also gives more buildings that double their cpt. Of course, if a town has more food available, the extra food from being agricultural doesn't help as much, but you will have many towns where the food supply is somewhat limited.

The early expansion of the agricultural trait cannot be under estimated and you need three irigated grassland as opposed to two for non-agricultural on the pop rush stage.