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Favorite New Leader for Existing Civ

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Phoenix1595, Jun 20, 2007.

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Who is your favorite new leader for an existing civ?

Poll closed Jul 11, 2007.
  1. Lincoln (America)

    34 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Boudicca (Celts)

    43 vote(s)
    17.3%
  3. De Gaulle (France)

    21 vote(s)
    8.4%
  4. Pericles (Greeks)

    76 vote(s)
    30.5%
  5. Suleiman (Ottoman)

    25 vote(s)
    10.0%
  6. Darius (Persia)

    50 vote(s)
    20.1%
  1. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Me-"Crap, we're currently loosing...we'll bounce back won't we Charles?"
    De Gaulle's Dead Carcus-"Wtf is that thing?"

    It's true-he's sitting right next to me...:lol:
    Why are people voting for Pericles besides the fact that Alexander is a Psycho?
     
  2. Thedrin

    Thedrin Deity

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    Here's a few reasons.

     
  3. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Ahh...so you're a culture kinda guy...and so is Pericles...when you put two and two together...ahh...:goodjob: I get it. I still like De Gaulle the best though.
     
  4. Phoenix1595

    Phoenix1595 Lord of the Two Lands

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    I agree with Thedrin re: Pericles. As a cultural player, I found the Greeks under Alex lacking in this regard. The Ancient Greeks were the springboard for Western culture, but that isn't reflected in the current game. Pericles will allow us culture snobs to revisit the Greeks.
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Pericles. France and America don't need any more leaders, and Boudicca is, as has been discussed at length, a questionable choice. No problems with Darius or Suleiman, it's just that Pericles gets extra points because now the Greeks have a leader who was actually Greek- having Alexander as the Greek leaders always seemed a bit like having Genghis Khan as a Chinese leader, albeit not quite as extreme.
     
  6. Withouthatred

    Withouthatred Chieftain

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    Boudicca, not only is she an interesting leader, but Chirismatic complements aggresive, so that should be fun to play with.
     
  7. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    I do not have the apatite to enter a long debate but Alexander was as Greek as Pericles was. Can you provide me the source of your misinformation ?
     
  8. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Well, quite simply, Alexander was a Macedonian, not a Greek. While he fancied himself a Greek, and, from our perspective is really close enough, the Greeks themselves- and I think it's fair to say that they would know- did not consider the Macedonians to be true Greeks. Pericles, by contrast, was not only a Greek but a Alcmaeonid, an old and powerful Athenian family.
     
  9. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Source ?

    I am asking for a source , because this is the 1000th time i hear of this , unhistorical . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . . And i am looking the source of it.

    I am looking for this so called Macedonian civilization and ofcourse the origins of Alexander . And the only things i find is a Greek name , From a king that speaks Greek that comes from a region where they speak Greek. A Leader that his success of spreading Greek cultutre are the reason for the Hellenistic age . But although he is Greek , you support , he is not a Greek but a Macedonian.

    An unrelated text "
    According to Plutarch, his father descended from Heracles through Caranus and his mother descended from Aeacus through Neoptolemus and Achilles.[3] Plutarch relates that both Philip and Olympias dreamt of their son's future birth. In Philip's dream, he sealed her womb with the seal of the lion. Alarmed by this, he consulted the seer Aristander of Telmessus, who determined that his wife was pregnant and that the child would have the character of a lion.[4] Another odd coincidence is that the temple of Artemis in Ephesus was set afire on the night of his birth. Plutarch's explanation is that the Gods were too busy watching over Alexander to care for the temple.

    After his visit to the Oracle of Ammon at Siwa, according to five historians of antiquity (Arrian, Curtius, Diodorus, Justin, and Plutarch), rumors spread that the Oracle had revealed Alexander's father to be Zeus, rather than Philip. In support of this, Plutarch (Alexander 3.1,3) claims that Philip avoided Olympias' bed because of her affinity for sleeping in the company of snakes.
    World view at the time of Alexander: reconstruction of Hecataeus' ancient world map, 5th century BC.
    World view at the time of Alexander: reconstruction of Hecataeus' ancient world map, 5th century BC.

    In his early years, Alexander was raised by his nurse Lanike, who was Cleitus' older sister. Following this, Alexander was educated by a strict teacher: Leonidas, a relative of his mother Olympias. Leonidas thought Alexander narcissistic and silly, and was equally disliked by Alexander. Reportedly, when Alexander threw a large amount of sacrificial incense into a fire, Leonidas harshly reprimanded him, telling him that when he had conquered the spice bearing regions, he could waste as much as he wanted. Years later, when Alexander had conquered Gaza, a city directly on the Persian spice trade route, he sent back over 15 tons of myrrh to Leonidas as a sort of ultimate comeback. Aristotle, however, was Alexander's most famous and important tutor since he gave Alexander a thorough training in rhetoric and literature and stimulated his interest in science, medicine, and philosophy. Aristotle gave him a copy of the Iliad which he always kept with him and read frequently.

    When Alexander was ten years old, a Thessalian brought a black horse to sell to Philip. The horse turned out to be wild and no man could mount him. The young Alexander went to the horse, and turned him towards the sun, for he had noticed that the horse was just afraid of his own shadow. He was then able to mount and ride it. His father and other people who saw this were very impressed, and when the young Alexander returned and dismounted the horse Philip kissed him with tears of joy and said "My son, seek thee out a kingdom equal to thyself; Macedonia has not room for thee." This line probably had as much paranoid fear in it as pride. Philip II knew perfectly well what happened to Macedonian kings with ambitious sons. The horse was named Bucephalus (which means "ox-head"). Bucephalus would be his companion and one of his best friends for the next two decades until the horse died (according to Plutarch due to old age, for he was already 30; other sources claim that Bucephalus died of wounds sustained in a battle in India). Alexander then named a city after him called Bucephalia or Bucephala.

    "

    You will notice that all the names of Alexander's teachers , relatives and Alexander's name where Greek.

    Yet you choose to call him a Macedonian . Although SOME of the OTHER ancient Greeks you think to know so much about also considered him a Greek. Oh wait some Did while other choose not to. Why ? Look at the map and at the histotry of the region and you will understand that the territory named as Macedonia was not under the same Hellenic influence , Hellenication was transitioarry but By the age of Alexander the Great and Philip's Kingdom was a Greek city state. Indeed the Royal family of Macedonia had a very large tradition of hellenization before Philip was ever been born.

    A noted Philosopher of Athens believing in the virtuous of PanHellenization , meaning the constitution of A panhellenic army against the Persians . In his texts he described several Greek leaders that where fit for that cause . In his conclusion he believed the best leader fit to do such a did was Philip of Macedon. However his beliefs was opposed to Athenian and Spartian interests , cities that where now weakened while Macedonia was rising stronger. It is easy to see why those city states would oppose the idea of Macedonia conquering them , even under the virtue of uniting the Greeks together.
    Macedonia became Greek later than the other cities of mainland Greek. But at the time Macedonia was a Greek city state and their propaganda was Wrong.


    Wikipedia seems to agree with the historical truth :

    Alexander the Great (Greek: Μέγας Aλέξανδρος,[1][2] Megas Alexandros; July 20, 356 BC–June 10, 323 BC), also known as Alexander III, was an Ancient Greek king of Macedon (336–323 BC). He was one of the most successful military commanders in history, and was undefeated in battle. By his death, he conquered most of the world known to the ancient Greeks.
     
  10. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Yes. So? Ruling Greece doesn't make you Greek, at least not in the eyes of the Greeks themselves. The Ancient Greeks- Hellenes, as they called themselves- considered themselves to be a nation of three major subdivisions: the Dorians, the Ionians and the Aeolians, as well as the less important Arcadians. The Macedonians were not seen as members of any of these groups, i.e. were not Greeks. Alexander was a Macedonia. Therefore, Alexander was not Greek. It's so straightforward that it can even be expressed as a forumla:
    Macedonian =/= Greek
    Alexander = Macedonia
    .'. Alexander =/=Greek
    Simple.
     
  11. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    scy12, I'm pretty impressed...no offense or anything but I'm twelve years old and I knew that Alexander was a Macedonian, not exactly a Greek but close...:lol:
     
  12. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    You are more ignorant than i imagined. Please show me one source that indeed does agree with your conclusion that Alexander was not Greek
    If those pseudohistoric opinions are due to political propaganda this is understandable but now i tell you to admit your ignorance and search for the historic truth from any reliable source you wish.

    A simple formula :
    Macedonia at the time was Greek. Especially the royal family of Macedonia , they had a very old Greek lineage. Therefor Alexander was Greek. What does the name Alexander mean by the way Traitorfish ?

    The Greeks didn't come only from three groups although those three groups were the more prominent ones , the first ones. Several other barbarian groups like Pelasgianshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgoi, , the Leleges, the Lemnians the Minoans and others integrated with the other Helladic groups and where to an extent or completely hellenized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenized

    Also evidence show that Illirians , a group that inhabited mostly northern territories such as Thrace was of Dorian descent
    "
    Illyrians as Dorians

    Carleton S. Coon found a connection between the Illyrians and the Dorians based on his anthropological analyses of the Albanian and Montenegrin population as well as the Sfakian population in Crete. Coon discovered that Montenegro and Albania is highly concentrated Illyrian racial zone and that the Sfakians are directly descended from Doric tribes that invaded Crete from the direction of Macedonia and Illyria. Moreover, he discovered that Albanians, Montenegrins and Sfakians shared many similarities in stature, appearance, language, national costume, belligerent tendencies, tribal orders, and vendettas.
    "

    From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians

    "rly kingdom before the time of Philip II exclusively. It is undisputed that Macedon was heavily Atticized from the time of Alexander the Great (see Hellenism). However there are indications that even during the early kingdom, before the time of King Philip II, there were Hellenic influences in the Macedonian kingdom. King Archelaus established the new capital at Pella, a festival in honor of Zeus at Dion (a city right next to Mt. Olympus), and welcomed Southern Greek intellectuals into the kingdom. Athenian playwriters such as Euripides and Agathon and the famous painter Zeuxis all were influential in the early Kingdom. Euripides wrote his last two tragedies at Archelaus' court. [1]"

    "In book eight, Herodotus counts the allied Macedonians as part of the Greek fleet. Titus Livius (lived 59 BC-14 AD) in his Ab urbe condita (31.29) is quoting a Macedonian ambassador from the late 3rd century BC, implying that Macedonians had been a Greek-speaking tribe:

    The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day.---

    Ah so other Greeks (Herodotus) do think the Macedonians as Greek. And clearly that is how the Macedonians themselfs think



    "
    In the Hellenistic times, the Macedonians – following the death of Alexander – hellenized the Syrians, Jews, Egyptians, Persians, Armenians and a number of other smaller ethnic groups along the Middle East and Central Asia. The Bactrians, an Iranian ethnic group who lived in Bactria (northern Afghanistan), were hellenized during the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, and soon after various tribes in northwestern India (modern Pakistan) during the Indo-Greek Kingdom. Even today there are several ethnic groups in Pakistan and Afghanistan that claim descent from the Greeks (see Kalasha)."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenized

    How (and why) would the Macedonians Hellenize those regions (and so the Hellenistic period starts) , if they weren't Greek ? Why did Alexander pursue this Hellenization ?


    It is as clear as crystal water. I am still looking for your source ...
     
  13. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Look , this is a subject that i searched for , studied and learned long before i even thought of entering the forum and likely long before the forum was made.

    Saying that Alexander is not a Greek but a Macedonian is as ridiculous as claiming that Agisilaos was not a Greek but a Spartan , that any Leader was not a part of his common group but he derives from the city he was Leading. For example it is Like calling Bush a Texan and not an American , the Greek president an Athenian and not a Greek and so on... I would like you also to present me the source that claims that Alexander was not a Greek.

    You are twelve years old so i guess your source is a school book ?

    EDIT : Breaking news : Archimedes is not a Greek but a Sicilian . Indeed until now Greek propaganda led us to believe he was Greek but the truth is he was a Sicilian.
     
  14. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    It is a Latin adaption of the name Aλέξανδρος (Alexandros) and roughly translates as "Protector of Man"- "Alexis" meaning refuge, protection or defense, "Andros" meaning man.
    Now, I'm assuming what you're saying here is that his name is Greek- that is true. However, I did say that the Macedonians strove to emulate Greek culture, so giving themselves Greek names would not be unusual.
    Your formula hinges on an incorrect fact- that Macedon was part of Greece- and so is rendered incorrect. In the same vein, any formula that starts black=white is incorrect.

    Herodotus wrote in post-Alexander Greece, under the rule of a Macedonian dynasty, and so accepted the Macedonians as Greeks. This did not happen before Alexander, or even during his reign.

    Because the Macedonians, while not Greek, emulated Greek culture. I've explained this.
     
  15. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Suleiman, Ottomans! Always liked the Ottomans :D
     
  16. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Yeah, mostly...I don't know if you went to school cause you seem pretty :)stupid: ) and the school books are usually right...I read adult ones too...Anyway let's get back on topic...
     
  17. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    the Greeks considered Macedonians to be inferior barbarians. there.

    and i like Suleiman, because he should have been the leader of the Ottomans, unlike that little weasel Mehmed who destroyed the last of the Byzantines in an epic seige.
     
  18. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Correct on the name part. And do you know why Alexander has a Greek name ,Greek teachers and Greek relatives ? That is because his Father , His Mother and the Father of His Father also choose Greek Names , Greek Customs and Greek traditions. Even the most politically pro Macedonian sites will agree with the historical truth that Alexander as the Royal family was Greek , if they have no more than an ounce of reliability. Something you lack.



    You thought of an ingenious scapegoat to escape your ignorant comments.
    They thought themselfs as Greek , other ancient Greeks did ,They spoke Greek , they made transactions with other Greeks . Yet they are macedonians. Why ? Because ofcourse they try to emulate Greek culture.:lol:
    The sad thing , all this is taken directly from your ass as their is no source that will agree with you. It is not only historically unreasonable but logically also. In fact if you ever do care to study this subject rather than making everything on the road , you will find out that Hellenism wasn't Homogenus in most areas that in the end were Greek (some as known as colonies).
    Question number 2 Was Archimedes Greek ? Pericles ? Socrates ?Cleopatra ? Seleukos ? How do you choose who you prefer as Greek ? I would say historical evidence that show a long Greek culture.

    However Historians do agree that when barbarian groups do emulate:)lol: ) successfully Hellenic culture and are fully intergraded into the Greek world that they are Greek. Else we must digard all the colonies , largely the population of all the Greek cities since a big part of them were barbarians that Oh my God successfully emulated Greek culture , to become Greek themselfs. Hense although Macedon had a long history of a province being under Hellenization , All historians agree this was a Greek city under Philip.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenized

    Yet i suppose you think your opinion is superior to all historic conclusions by all historians since that is your only source .

    Oh your opinion and a Black =/White argument.


    Talking again (as always) from your only source ? Lieing with a false hope that i wouldn't know the obvious lie or simple ignorance (as always) ?


    Alexander the Great (Greek: Μέγας Aλέξανδρος,[1][2] Megas Alexandros; July 20, 356 BC–June 10, 323 BC

    Herodotus of Halicarnassus (Greek: Ἡρόδοτος Ἁλικαρνᾱσσεύς Hērodotos Halikarnāsseus) was a Greek historian from Ionia who lived in the 5th century BC (484 BC–ca. 425 BC) and is regarded as the "Father of History". He is almost exclusively known for writing The Histories, a record of his 'inquiries' (or 'ἱστορίαι', a word that passed into Latin and took on its modern connotation of 'history') into the origins of the Greco-Persian Wars which occurred in 490 and 480-479 BCE — especially since he includes a narrative account of that period, which would otherwise be poorly documented, and many long digressions concerning the various places and peoples he encountered during wide-ranging travels around the lands of the Mediterranean and Black Sea.

    You know , they count backwards when counting from BC to Ad.
    Your ignorance is obvious. As i am not payed to be your teacher , i suggest you start to study and learn on this alone rather than bugging me with your ignorant comments.





    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Priceless . Absolutely Priceless. This Would be a great canditate for advertisement of mastercard . Copy and pasted for future use.

    A 12 year's old kid who is ignorant on history and trusts his school books thinks i haven't gone to school , to justify his ignorance on history. And from all subjects of history he chooses this to do it. Unfortunately answering to you is also pathetic. Someone would say , who is the more
    :stupid: , the :stupid: or the one who wastes his time with the :stupid: ?

    Anyway i would like to see what your school books actually say . I would guess they wouldn't write obvious lies but it is not unusual for school books
    to do that. From where would you get that opinion.


    It appears some kids should go back to school or the School is a failure . If the later happens , wise kids would learn to search from various sources the truth before making comments.
     
  19. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    wow, more Quote Wars!!! A New Battleground: 300land.

    anyhow, how about this compromise - Macedon isn't Greek. But Macedon and Greece were hellenistic culturally.
     
  20. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Greek is a translation for Hellenic. Macedon was Hellenic and therefor the English (actually it comes from a Greek word) word Greek.

    Philip's (And Philip's Father) Macedon. Historians are uncertain at how barbaric 800 BC Macedonia was. Historians do agree with everything i said. So i believe in historical study the compromise is forced only by historical reality .
     

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