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Favorite Warmongerer?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by AJ22PIZZA, Jun 12, 2016.

  1. IkM

    IkM King

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    Ahh... You love to keep showing how master you are in this game, don't you?

    If you attack a city with range unit you get 3 exp. With MT (+50%) and Keshik bonus (+50%) makes it 12 exp in a turn...

    After reading this I think no point to answer rest...

    I'm playing this game for years, played almost 1000h and never met people who prefer CA over Keshik... Neither for MP nor SP.

    G'day to you as well. :)
     
  2. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Well, someone is definitely just replying to keep his pride intact at this point. That's true for sure :)


    Most people itt have probably played more than 1000 hours of Civ V, I for sure do..

    FilthyRobot is probably the most respected MP player there is and he prefers Camels over Keshiks.

    I was googling regarding your comment for city-attack giving 3 exp but did not find anything.

    http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_(Civ5)

    This article doesn't mention it at all. Care to link me a source?

    Edit:

    http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/units/

    This article mentions attacking a city gives 3 exp for Archers and Horse Archer line. I trust Carlsguides as a source having used it often.
     
  3. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Well one thing is for sure, both of you have more war experience then I do! The only person I've ever completed conquest with is Zulu. I've done early rushes, I've crushed neighbors with Jag rushes, and taken cities, but full-out world conquest I rarely pursue. Sounds fun the way you guys talk about it...I may try it more often! :)

    Anyway, regardless of which UU is better in the above discussion, what would be the list of top-tier 5 warmongers in both of you guys' opinions? I assume all of them need to have a decent midgame UU to work well on Deity and helpful UA is not bad either. Where do you rank the Zulu? I found their 50% xp increase to be insane. I had so many imp with all buffalo promos, blitz AND march that upgraded straight to rifles as I took the last few capitals. I remember taking out infantry with those rifles no problem due to all the flanking bonuses and double attacks, and even new ones got there quickly. How powerful would you rank the Japananese Bushido ability? Seems like it could really turn the tide at points, there are many situations where I was about to take a city and the damage on units made me miss it by a turn and lose a guy or two. But maybe I just don't build enough units to cycle in and out.
     
  4. IkM

    IkM King

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    Or nvm
     
  5. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    That thread was Vanilla or GnK where Camels were much worse than they are now..

    So a list purely based on warmongering ability then? I reckon for Pangea?

    My top 5 picks would probably be something like this:

    1. Huns
    2. China
    3. Mongols
    4. Zulu
    5. Arabia

    HM: Persia, Inca, England

    Huns are probably uncontested. They easily top every chart when it comes to victory times. Horse Archers not needing Horses and Rams being ressource free means they can perform very well even without any strategic ressources or a bad start location. Probably the easiest pick of them all.

    Picking China over Mongols was hard, because in my opinion Mongols will almost always get better finishing times if everything goes right. But clearly if you are lacking horses or if the game goes on beyond Industrial the Mongols fall off very hard so I think China is just a little better. The additional strength bonus from GG is huge.

    Mongols are probably no surprise either. They have the second highest cleaning potential, if you start with Horses and little jungle/mountain/hill terrain for your opponents it is feasible to clean maps at around T150 or T160, but that's already a lot of "ifs". Mongols have a lot over Arabs in terms of warfare: Khan healing your blocker units is very strong, Khan being able to GG bomb easier is useful, the additional movement for Horsemen, Knights and Cav is a neat feature.

    Zulu were also very tough. I almost put them over the Mongols, not because of the Impi but because Zulu get real fast Logistics on Crossbows and get more use out of Barracks/Armory than any other Civ does. The maintenance reduction is also huge, as is the flanking bonus, ranged damage reduction and movement from Ikanda. People tend to forget that Swords and Longswords also get those promotions.

    Arabia is my last pick. This was an easy one. Generally you have only 2 useful bonuses for warmongering: The Camel Archer and additional Oil in the lategame. If you do everything right the game should never last beyond Artillery, so the Oil is a very insignificant bonus. The Bazaar is way less useful for domination games since you mostly only get 3gpt per lux. The trade route buffs are marginal at best.

    If the HM aren't obvious enough:

    Persia not for the Immortal but for the +1 movement which is incredible for Siege/stepping onto hills/jungle/forest and shooting.

    Inca for the reduced road maintenance which can easily accumulate to 50gpt or something ridic like that in the lategame. Faster movement on hills is insanely good throughout the game. Slinger is meh at best, sometimes worse than an actual archer..

    England only for the Longbow since we are talking Pangea. You can use Frigates on Pangea and esp. on Oval, but I think Xbow might still be faster.

    As for Bushido, it's really bad sadly. The way it works is that once a unit is down to 1% it does 50% less damage, not 99%. So really Bushido is a meager boost most of the time, much like that Autocracy tenet.

    I don't know if this is 100% it so please correct me if I'm wrong. I read this on here, too, I always thought Bushido was really strong :lol:
     
  6. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Nice, thanks for the explanations! That's a shame Bushido isn't that good, it sounded really cool when I first read about it on the wiki. :/

    I'm surprised that Germany wasn't in the HM category. I figured 50% maintenance off land army would be awesome for early aggression. My limiting factor is usually gold since you don't get that much till you finish honor and finishing honor is slooow. I guess their lack of early UU is a handicap but a few free archers and brutes from encampments is nice for early CS tributing as well.
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    It might seem odd to you, me being German and all, but I've never really played as Germany. Maybe once or twice. By far the strongest thing about Germany is the Hanse. The UU comes much to late to do anything. The reduced maintenance and the barbarian conversion are the only real bonuses given towards a domination victory and simply do not compare to something that is amazing throughout the entire game like 2x movement on hills, better crossbows or siege being able to move & shoot during a golden age.

    There are a lot of civilizations I left out that I'd put over Germany for DomV: America, Songhai, Shoshone, Russia and others I'd rate just as high as Germany like Azetcs, Rome, Assyria..

    I think Germany excel at CV if anything since you're often hammer starved and growth isn't as important as it is for science, meaning you can use CS tr instead of itr.
     
  8. General Tso

    General Tso Panzer General

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    I almost always use Japan. I probably should try something different just to add some variety to my game. But the combination of full strength wounded units and 2 very good unique units is usually just to good to pass up. On a related note can anybody tell me if the ideological tenet that increases wounded units by 25% works with Japan? That would cause wounded unit to be stronger than healthy units. Which would be kind of awesome.
     
  9. AJ22PIZZA

    AJ22PIZZA Chieftain

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    Elite Forces (the policy that gives +25%) has no effect according to Zigzagzigal in his Japan guide.

    Also I would say the Zero is bad. Fighters become irrelevant with Mobile SAMs because they don't use oil and can attack units and cites, while also intercepting. The no oil needed on the Zero is a plus, but I'd rather spend production on Artillery, Bombers, or Infantry/Paratroopers/Mobile SAMs.
     
  10. miaasma

    miaasma King

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    reading this back and forth i remember filthy talking about how the camel archer is one of, if not the best unit in the game and i don't remember exactly what he said but it sounded pretty compelling

    i like me some keshiks but camel archers are a tier above i believe
     
  11. docbud

    docbud Emperor

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    While I also think the Camel Archers are better, I started a game last night as Mongolia and I'm having quite a bit of fun with the Keshiks.

    The Attila attacked me right after I had gotten a few Keshiks, but other than that, I only had a few comp bowmen and warriors. He attacked with a huge army and a lot of battering rams. I was within a turn of losing my capital.

    Anyway--I beat him off, cash bought a few more Keshiks and decimated his retreating army. Then I took two of his cities and I'm marching towards his capital now.

    The promotions are amazing, but unfortunately, many of them don't carry over when they become almost obsolete and I have to upgrade them.

    But there is no way I will have time to take all the capitals on this pangea map by then.

    But again--I'm not a great player.

    But the Keshiks are fun to use.
     
  12. docbud

    docbud Emperor

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    Apologies for the double post--but I do have questions about what promotions Keshiks lose when they are upgraded.

    What promotions should I take that I won't lose? For example, do I keep cover? Shooting twice? Healing every turn? Rough terrain or flat?

    I realize that once they are upgraded they won't be that great in the grand scheme of things, but in my game right now, I declared war on the entire world and my dozen Keshiks are getting promoted left and right.

    What should I pick so it will carry forward and not be lost?
     
  13. AJ22PIZZA

    AJ22PIZZA Chieftain

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    I'd say take Logistics (double attacking) first because Calvary/Tanks can use it.
     
  14. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    All the promotions pass over, but what good does +1 range do for a cavalry? Or +45% ranged combat strength against x territory?

    Top 5 war civs:
    1. Huns
    Hammers from UA, free AH = beeline wheel with first build of a worker. Improve superhammer tiles and spam Horse Archers, one of the very best units in the game, and you'll take all the cities you want. Faster razing and battering ram also very helpful.
    2. England
    I mostly play on Pangaea but when I play shuffle and get an island map I want England. Ship of the Line is probably, objectively, meaning including all map types, the game's very best unit. Of course, however, it overshadows the Longbow, which would get England up here all on its own, on an all-land game.
    3. Arabia
    The next best unit after the SOTL is the camel, which is absolutely the best over SOTL on Pangaea or other landy maps. Overwhelming power way too early just skyrockets Arabia to #3. It's dangerous to have camels, because it makes you feel invincible, and it's impossible to fight them.
    4. China
    Killer units are really good but IMO what shines for China is the UA. Although Cho Ku No are also terrifying. But China's UA lets all their units always be a lot better than anybody else's IN ADDITION TO them having faster generals for more citadels.
    5. Mongols
    Although I've said I prefer camels, which I do, Keshiks are still quite good, as is the Khan and the UA a little bit, particularly the horse movement. It lets capture units sit just a little further back. Plus Khans can move like crazy and citadel you, it's really annoying.

    HM: Zulu (I love 'em but Impis are best on defense), Russia (double frigates, battleships, nukes, stealth are very dangerous but not worth it themselves for a place on the list), Rome (Legions are the tankiest unit in the game but none of it is as good as the 5), Greece (great defensive units on this civ), Denmark (I actually really love the UA and Berserkers, but no like how I love ranged units).
     
  15. General Tso

    General Tso Panzer General

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    Thanks for the answer concerning Elite Forces AJ22PIZZA.

    As far as zeros go. I upgrade all of my zeros to jet fighters and I like the fact you can still build zero's then upgrade them even after the jet fighter is available. I prefer jet fighters because they can keep up with my armored unit while SAMs tend to get left behind. But to each there own.

    I forgot to mention that I usually use a mod to place extra strategic resources on the map. So I usually have enough aluminum to create a bunch of jet fighters (upgraded from zeros) for air superiority while not limiting my self in other areas. So I end up with a large number of jet fighters with the extra promotion. And I usually really need them because the AI tends to build massive air forces with those extra strategic resources. Sorry - I probably should have mentioned this in the first post.
     
  16. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    As to Bushido, it's really rather useless. There's not really that big of a problem concerning unit health in regards to the damage they do, so it's almost a non-bonus. I'd say I kinda like the zero, it's useful in some situations and allows interesting strategies especially at sea or for upgrade strats.

    The samurai's pretty useless. Steel tech is useless, is the problem.
     
  17. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Well one Samurai isn't useless. I've had a number of cities I really wanted a fishing boat in some spot totally blocked by ice.

    Just seems to come up more often than you would think.
     
  18. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    Honestly, if there's no threat of them getting sniped by planes or run down by Tanks, I find Range Logistics Keshik remain deadly. Much better to build a new Cavalry that can really use its promos and have it trailed by a deadshot. Only the Red Fort can protect a victim who has not got deep into the Industrial Era.

    When they absolutely cannot achieve anything in battle any more, I don't upgrade them - I just leave them as a garrison in each city, where they can immediately run out and neutralise Barbarian spawns - and cause serious problems for any half-baked land invasion.

    Just make sure to take some decent blocker units with you, as a counter-attack of Cavalry and Lancers will make mincemeat out of you.
     
  19. docbud

    docbud Emperor

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    ^^Thanks.
     
  20. YellowCheese

    YellowCheese Chieftain

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    Difficult to rank them. I usually go for a science or cultural victory in Civ since im not that good at warring just yet, but I've been having tons of fun with Persia, especially mid-late game where thet +1 movements means i can get cannons in range and shoot at the same time, and it makes Tanks late game so much better than normally. Immortals are also pretty decent at bribing city states which is nice

    Other than that Songhai has the amazing ability to have no issue with fighing over rivers (which really screws other civs over) and the much high amount of gold you get from barb camps and Cities. Rarely use the UU since Im super unlucky with strategic resources.
     

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