Favorite Wonder -Industrial

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Strategy & Tips' started by ArmOrAttAk, Jul 1, 2002.

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Vote for your favorite, whatever level or settings you play.

  1. Leonardo's Workshop

    65 vote(s)
    50.8%
  2. J.S. Bach's Cathedral

    21 vote(s)
    16.4%
  3. Issac Newton's College

    2 vote(s)
    1.6%
  4. Adam Smith's Trading Co.

    28 vote(s)
    21.9%
  5. Darwin's Voyage

    6 vote(s)
    4.7%
  6. Statue of Liberty

    6 vote(s)
    4.7%
  7. Eiffel Tower

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Banach

    Banach Warlord

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    I voted for Bach's, because I generally play democracy. As other people have mentioned, the relative value, of course, depends on what kind of game you're playing. Early landing players like to have one large SSC supplemented by small helpers, so they prefer Newton's. I like getting Leo's for the ship and engineer upgrades, but I survive without it just fine. As many players have mentioned, the money saved by Adam Smith in a turn tends to pale in comparison to the payoff from a single caravan/freight. With MGE, Eiffel tower is completely useless, the AI always hates you. I've definitely used the Statue to turn fundamentalist early, and Darwin's is useful for when I have extra gold. In any game with heavy caravan/freight traffic, I tend to BUY wonders of the world, as I'd rather be delivering all of my commodity caravans. As long as the payoff is more than 200 gold, it makes more sense (4 gold/shield to rush a wonder), and that's not even counting the beaker bonus. If one equates a beaker to a coin, caravans only need pay >100 coins for it to make more sense to buy the wonder than build it with caravans. This, of course, is assuming that the city in question still has commodities to supply. If it doesn't I'll use food caravans for wonders. All that being said, I've been known to go for as many wonders as I can just for fun, as all of them are useful (except for that Eiffel tower).
     
  2. KevinLedland

    KevinLedland Chieftain

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    Adam Smith rules!:king:

    Leonardo's Workshop is also great since it grants all free upg.:goodjob: and you can't upg. your obsolete unit without it. But the more cities i have, the more i enjoy with adam so it's my priority.

    Eiffel Tower is as bad as the tank-killer spearmen.
     
  3. Formula Juan

    Formula Juan Chieftain

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    First : Leonardo's Workshop. It upgrades automatically all the units, that makes my cities defence stronger and stronger, may attacking units always more powerful, and I don't have to build new units because of obsolency.

    And then Adam Smith, it reduces strongly my taxes rate and I can privilege scientifical research and elvises (in Republic or Democracy only.)
     
  4. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    No wonder can do what JS Bach can: remove unhappiness in the final step, including units away from home in a democracy/republic. In Fundy, they generate cash: 2g per turn! It never expires, and is always useful.

    Leonards is quite unnecessary, but is definitely nice to have. Good planning eliminates its need. Leos actually HARMS your units (the veterans) in some cases (removal of veteran status!): like vet Ironclads (Attack/defend with 6) "upgraded" to Destroyers (A/d with 4 as non-vets), or vet Legion (a/d 6) vs Musketeers (a/d 3, albiet with 20 hit points). If enemy gets Leos, then just go capture it before it expires. The best units are not available until post-Leos, anyway (Armor, Stealth, Howie, AEGIS, etc.).
     
  5. Millman

    Millman Mark the Magnificent

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    Adam Smith, I like the idea of instantly first starting a temple or marketplace in city 101 without paying its upkeep.
     
  6. Ace

    Ace Emperor

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    Adam Smith is a nice wonder to have, but it is not one of the top wonders. When you have 101 cities you should be in democracy and generating 3 to 4,000 coins per turn and this maintenance cost is a pittance. This small savings cannot be compared to the happiness provided by JSB and Mike's.
     
  7. Millman

    Millman Mark the Magnificent

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    Overall, you are right, I'm use to not having any happiness problems at all at that level, my luxury rate thanks to all the city improvements is high enough to keep half of my citizens happy.
     
  8. civdood

    civdood Chieftain

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    Civdood vote Bach but Civdood would vote Leo if my spaceships were still floating in the galaxy in 1990. But now Civdood colonize far reaches before 1900 and Civdoods cities happy happy happy in democracy with JS Bach. How did you masters figure it out but it work so good good good. One days Civdood can plant his flag before 1800. :D :goodjob:
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Civdood should join the GOTMs and see some great players at work. Many went from decent players to good players to great players by playing the GOTMs.
     
  10. Dong2Long

    Dong2Long Chieftain

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    those that did not vote for bach probably do not understand the game or at best play at easy levels where few challenges reveal themselves. I agree that no wonder or improvement or strategy can duplicate its effect, or compensate its loss.
     
  11. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    And those who make such sweeping generalizations always use the same settings and the same strategy.

    There is no best or worst without fixing two variables first: strategy and map.

    For example, if I am playing OCC I do not need Bach.
     
  12. Ace

    Ace Emperor

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    Quite right! Maybe add one more variable: Difficulty level. This definately effects ones choice of wonders. The gov form one favors also effects the ranking of wonders. For example, "must have" happiness wonders in Demo are just nice to have in fundy.
     
  13. Dong2Long

    Dong2Long Chieftain

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    That's true for wonders in general, but in terms of my favorite, the sun still rises and sets with JS Bach, provided as you all have pointed out, that the difficulty is Diety or higher, lots of cities, and especially Republic, Communism (large cities), or Democracy (JS Bach not too efficient for OCC, or even for all size 2 city limit games etc.).
     
  14. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    In a OCC, you could go Republic and use Police Station, and eliminate the need for one of the primary situations for JS Bach (Line 5 happiness control). However, Fundy has great use for Bach too.. the tithe. 2 Gold per city. With only 100 tiny cities, thats 200 gold per turn... each turn... for possessing this wonder. :D
     
  15. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    I play mostly for early conquest, so I don't usually build any of these wonders. But IMO Bach's and Leo's are the top 2.

    Leo's is great! Not so much for improving your army (which is such a tiny aspect of Civ2 anyway) but for improving your settlers to engineers and triremes to transports. Build lots of boats in the early game and enjoy the rewards - trade! colonies! conquest!
     
  16. civdood

    civdood Chieftain

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    civdood make dipmat who go to spy when far away from home and this is so so good, when ironship goes to destroyer he not vet anymore, and this isnot so good, but when he attack little man on shore, he goes up to vet when tsuntsu make him vet for tiny kill and no hurt. leo is good, yes it is true!
     
  17. rysingsun

    rysingsun King

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    i think leos is more important when it first becomes available than jsb when it first becomes available. i just really like upgrading my triremes and settlers :) speaking of boats, i like upgrading my triremes all the way to transports. since i like playing my power democracies best on maps where trade must be done across water those boat upgrades actually do a huge amount to improve the happiness situation - more than jsb in the short run. now ... in the long term scheme of things i agree with those who say jsb.

    and as for poor adam ... at the time it becomes available i usually has swarms of cities madly producing settlers (or engineers or whatever) caravans (or is it freight??) ... hmmm, when is adam smith available again? - hard to remember for that wonder that i never think much about ... and ummm ... well maybe a market or an aquaduct here and there ... and lots of ships ... and adam just doesn't save me much money. .... well it does save a lot later ... but later i don't need the savings.

    yeah .. leos

    i think i like magellans more than adam smith ...
     
  18. Specialist290

    Specialist290 Terracotta Statue Man

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    Personally, I find JS Bach's to be unnecessary in most games I play (that reach that point). However, I mainly play on Prince level, so that may explain a little. I'd say that, personally, it's a tie between Leo's and Smith's.

    I'm also surprised that so few Power Demo advocates have reccommended Adam Smith's--after all, less upkeep means more money spent on building Caravans, Freight, and just about anything else that can be rushbuilt :D
     
  19. Ace

    Ace Emperor

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    Adam Smith's is useful in a Power Demo, but at the time it becomes available, other wonders are more valuable. And since Adam's can be in any city and effects all your cities, you can always capture it if you really want it.

    Since Adam's only saves on the 1 coin costing improvements, and not many of these are built early, the savings are not that great in the early going.
     

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