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Favorite Wonder -Modern

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Strategy & Tips' started by ArmOrAttAk, Jul 1, 2002.

?

Vote for your favorite, whatever level or settings you play.

  1. Hoover Dam

    70 vote(s)
    61.9%
  2. Women's Suffrage

    2 vote(s)
    1.8%
  3. Manhattan Project

    2 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. United Nations

    10 vote(s)
    8.8%
  5. Apollo Program

    14 vote(s)
    12.4%
  6. SETI Program

    9 vote(s)
    8.0%
  7. Cure for Cancer

    6 vote(s)
    5.3%
  1. ArmOrAttAk

    ArmOrAttAk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2002
    Messages:
    249
    Location:
    NYC
    Vote for your favorite, whatever level or settings you play.
     
  2. Smash

    Smash Super Lurker Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2000
    Messages:
    3,539
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    and of course the modern era.Just a polling away aren't we ;)

    This one is a no brainer I think.Hoover Dam.Poof.Hydro plants empire wide with no upkeep.Even get them in cities where normally a hydro plant would not be possible.
     
  3. ArmOrAttAk

    ArmOrAttAk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2002
    Messages:
    249
    Location:
    NYC
    I voted for U.N. It's available a lot sooner than Hoover. Being able to declare war, or force an enemy to peace in Democracy is more important to me.
     
  4. kmad

    kmad Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Hoover dam easily, helps loads in the space race
     
  5. KingWilly

    KingWilly Melbournite

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    278
    Location:
    Still in Despotism
    Hoover Dam rules.
    Hydro plant in every city in one shot.
    Normally I would be lucky to build just a couple, let alone one in every city.
    This really helps with pollution control too :nuke:
     
  6. Titi

    Titi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Angola
    Hoover Dam, because it brings you hydro plant in any of your city.

    Depending on your advance compared to the other civilizations, Apollo Program is nice too.
     
  7. duke o' york

    duke o' york It don't mean a thing....

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Messages:
    3,635
    Location:
    Don't get around much anymore
    My favourite is in fact the Apollo Program but I voted for the Hoover Dam because it's the best. I like to see where the opposing civs are if I haven't reached them all by that stage, but the pollution control from the Hoover is irreplaceable and as Smash said, you get hydro plants even where there is no water. :D
     
  8. Marlos

    Marlos Christian Soldier

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2001
    Messages:
    407
    Location:
    Canton, MI, USA
    Wow! (or is it WoW? :lol: ) I thought this would be less unanimous, with some votes for Women's Suffrage, UN or Apollo.

    More production :hammer: and less pollution :nuke: , what a combination!
     
  9. floppa21

    floppa21 Crusty Manhole

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    3,233
    Location:
    Aurora, CO
    I thought "hydro" only counted if you had rivers or mountains in the city radius? Does Hoover count as a hydro in each city regardless? I voted Apollo but if this is correct, I would change my vote.
     
  10. Marlos

    Marlos Christian Soldier

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2001
    Messages:
    407
    Location:
    Canton, MI, USA
    Floppa, it's every city on every continent IIRC.
     
  11. funxus

    funxus Orange Cycloptic Blob

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2002
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    Where you wish to be!
    Well, I believe you need a factory in the city, right? And isn't it in the whole world?
    My war-tactics usually rely on that I have the UN, and Women's suffrage is wonderful too. But I put my vote on HooverDam:)
     
  12. kmad

    kmad Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Location:
    Vancouver
    what's IIRC?
     
  13. floppa21

    floppa21 Crusty Manhole

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    3,233
    Location:
    Aurora, CO
    If I Recall Correctly. :goodjob:

    marlos, you sure the mountain / river doesn't matter? I take in too much info and mix it all around and I just end up confused... :cry:
     
  14. Dark Ascendant

    Dark Ascendant Darkness Ascending...

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    852
    Location:
    California,USA
    Hoover Dam is the best, saves lots of upkeep cash and resources obviously. The increased productivity is just too good to pass up. Who wouldn't build Hoover Dam?
     
  15. cliff

    cliff Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    160
    That would be me. :)

    I rarely build Hoover Dam. If I do, it's in the end, waiting for the spaceship to land, just because I have nothing better to do. Production is just not that important to me. Cash is more flexible than shields so I try to either be democratic with 10 or so big cities with all trade improvements or fundamentalist with many small cities and happiness wonders/city improvements. With maximum taxes for a while I will build a big army fast. No need to build factories everywhere.

    I like to have maximum science for a while first to research all the military techs that I need and then I will turn of research and have maximum taxes and rush build an army. After the war I will start researching again if I didn't conquer the whole world.

    If you build factories instead of trade routes for example you will have a lower research rate. I like to be fast on research.

    That's the thing I don't like about the Hoover Dam. You need factories first and probably lots of mined hills. I don't like "wasting time" on building factories and mining hills. That will slow down your research and city growth.

    When building a spaceship, two high production cities is all you need. In that case, two separate power plants would be cheaper than the dam. If you have maximum taxes and let the other cities build caravans, a small spaceship will be finished in 10 turns. I have never seen the ai build a spaceship that fast so I don't understand the big worry about being beaten in the space race.

    So, which wonder is the best? I'm not sure. I voted for Cure for Cancer. I think it is easier to celebrate WLTPD with this wonder, especially on deity. It saves you from having to build colosseums. I think fast city growth is important.
     
  16. Ace

    Ace Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,345
    Location:
    Southern CA, USA
    Hoover Dam.. free clean power in EVERY city with a factory!

    But, nobody mentioned the Seti program. That free research lab in each city does give the old science a boost.
     
  17. kmad

    kmad Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Location:
    Vancouver
    by the time you get SETI, you should be getting a tech every 1 or 2 turns so it doesn't make that much of a difference
     
  18. Dark Ascendant

    Dark Ascendant Darkness Ascending...

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    852
    Location:
    California,USA
    Not only does Hoover's Dam give all cities hydro power, it's completely FREE!

    Imagine the upkeep bills that you don't have to pay for this. The upkeep bills for the factory and the upkeep that you don't have to pay for hydro plants balance each other out. It's FREE hydro power, you get hydro power without having to pay the bills. It at the very least makes rudh-building cheaper, and money is power.
     
  19. cliff

    cliff Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    160
    Normally, I neither build factories nor the dam so I don't see that I actually "save" money by not having to pay the bills for the things I otherwise wouldn't buy. Remember that you have to have at least three factories for making this wonder worth building. Also, if you have a low production it doesn't give you much benefit.

    What will happen to a city with a production of a mere 10 shields? That will be 15 with a factory and 17 with the dam. You only get 2 additional shields. Assume you have 10 such cities. That will give you 20 extra shields per turn. After 30 turns, you would start to actually gain something. Also, the factories cost 200 shields. You get 5 extra shields from them but you have to pay 4g in upkeep. You can buy 1-2 shields for 4g so this makes the gain only 3-4 shields from the factory. That means that the factory will only be paying off after 50-60 turns.

    That's 80-90 turns you have to wait before even getting any benefit at all from the dam.

    Now, assume that you have been spending a lot of time mining your hills (instead of building roads, irrigation, and founding new cities). Now your cities will have a base production of 20 shields but they will make less money. So, you need three or more mines to double your shield production. Mining takes twice as long as irrigation so instead of making three mines you could have irrigated six squares, letting your city produce three extra taxmen. If you have a market and a bank (reasonable) that means 12g lost.

    So, in the example you have 10 cities which now produce 10 extra shields thanks to the factories and 5 extra thanks to the dam. From that amount 10 shields from the factories we will draw 4g upkeep + 12g for fewer taxmen. If you partially rush build military units, they cost 2.5g per shield. That's 6 shields lost so the benefit from the factory is only 4 shields. It will have payed itself after 50 turns. The dam now pays off after a mere 12 turns but you need those factories first, which are not as efficient. In total, you will start to have a production boost 62 turns after you have built the factories.

    How long does it take to build an army? For me, it always takes less than 62 turns. Hence, mining, factories and hoover dam seems unnecessary. True, the dam itself is good to have, provided that you have all the productive cities and factories. It's the prerequesites for the dam that are a waste of time. That's the reason I don't build it.
     
  20. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2001
    Messages:
    4,212
    Hoover Dam, easily..... UNLESS ---- you want to win by the space race. If a SS is essential for you, then the Apollo is actually the most important wonder in the game (but admittedly still not my "favorite"). That's because without Apollo, no SS (even if you let the AI build Apollo, it must be used!).


    But my fav is Hoover, and it is for anti-pollution as much as for shields... Democratics cities have low threshholds for RP, due to large city sizes. With Mass Transit, this threshhold is bumped up to 42 or more shields before any PIs (Pollution Icons - the Yellow Triangles) appear at all.


    Actually, that's not correct. The Hydro Plant (HP) increases shield output by 50% of the base city shield production, when you have a Factory (F) or Manufacturing Plant (MP).

    For a base of ten, you get:

    10 - Base output
    5 - Factory
    5 - HP
    -----------
    20 Total


    Of course, one should produce a base of 20 shields per city, which gives a 40s output, and 50s output with the MP.



    Not exactly.... you get no extra output until the Factory... the Factory unleashes both th F & HP output. Effectively, the factory doubles the shild output in a city (when you have the HD).

    Late game is more a function of production turns of a city, more than actual costs. That is, a city must get up and "fully running" asap, in order to crank out things such as BBs, Stealth Fighters, engineers, Freight (esp. freight), armor, howies, etc. One turn, one unit is nice, and factories allow this. Otherwise, it's more like every 2nd or 3rd turn to add that production with PRB/IPRB, etc.

    Remember, late game gold is cheap to create... 50 shields can be turned into as much as 4,000 gold and 4,000 science on the same turn as the Freight is produced, though payoffs of 800 to 1,600 are more common.

    The HD saves turns of production , production costs, maint. costs, has great antipollution benefits, and is there instantly in captured AI cities.

    The scale of your use of the HD is rather small.... make it more like 40 to 60 cities that are large and developed enough to sustain a factory, plus give the HP it's full shield credit, and consider the antipollution benefits even in those low shield output large cities (better have large cities if you irrigate instead of produce 40-60 shields!). :)

    Well, not a waste of time, though in some small cities, it would be. Small cities with low shield output are not the most efficient locations for factories, so I agree in some places the F's are a waste. But not in general.


    That said, when you reach the Environmentalism advance, with a good trade empire, the day of the Hoover Dam is greatly diminshed. That's because the Solar Plant completely usurps the HP, plus it gives even more benefits. So as the SP's come online, the HD loses "importance." But it still provides anti-pollution for all cities that have no RC or SP.


    Fo me, the HD (hands down) over all other late game wonders :).
     

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