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Fealty, Loyalty, and the REF

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I've moved this into its own thread and we can continue the conversation here...


     
  2. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I completed my first game with the new Civics Screen. I let the swine William of Normandy beat me to the Victory in the final Conquest. I should have attacked him and helped Pope Leo IX take some of his towns. Instead I just concentrated on my own war and let him win with ease by turn 220. I defeated my pope by the turn 238. I was playing a normal size map on Explorer difficultly, it wasn't difficult at all with all the troops I had. There is much room for improvement to the mod and lots of tweaks need to be made. I had raised turns to 350 because of feedback but I believe things have been adjusted enough that this can be lowered back to the default of 300 on normal game speed.

    Ok, the current vanilla formula for Fealty (Rebel Sentiment) is to add all your Towns Fealty then divide by the Total Population.

    Town Fealty is calculated by:
    iTurnfactor = 10 * GameSpeed Growth %(100 on normal) / 100 = 10
    iPastNetYields = (iTurnFactor - 1) * currentFealty
    iCurrentNetYields = TownNetYield * 25

    TotalFealty = (iPastNetYields + iCurrentNetYields) / iTurnfactor

    Anyway, I added that so we can better decided on what to do here. I am still brainstorming.

    On the REF, I really liked my idea of the REF being based on Player relations. When the game calculates to increase the REF, there is a new formula that factors in the Players relation to the other Civs. Each Civ can contribute to the REF, thus increasing its size, either with Units or Mercenaries bought with gold. If the AI declares himself Emperor the Player can contribute to the REF then, with Units or Gold that can purchase mercenaries. When the player declares himself Emperor the REF attacks lead by a New Player perhaps, the REF General for lack of a better term. I don't have the time at the moment to formulate calculations but that is the main idea.
     
  3. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    So I read this bit in Sanotra's thread, and it got me back to thinking about our previous discussions on the possible differences between Law and Fealty as 2 theoretical yields.

    Sanotra Radical Concepts Thread: (I think most of them are less radical and more just lots of work that he wants someone else to do :D)
    Spoiler :
    The Change
    The Colonial Bell would replace the Liberty Bell. Unlike the Liberty Bell, it does not produce a rebel sentiment %, but instead Colonial Strength %. Colonial Strength would benefit the colonies in every way rebel sentiment currently does, but without the overwhelming negative repercussions from the king. Producing Colonial Bells would produce the positives such as; culture so as to expand borders, political points so as to win founding fathers, and Colonial Strength so as to increase production by its %. Producing Colonial Bells will still have the effect of angering the king, but his anger will be much more delayed than in the current Liberty Bell system. This delay is because Colonial Bells don't produce infuriating Rebel Sentiment %, but instead a more emotionally neutral Colonial Strength %. The player would receive relatively light treatment from the king until an extremely high level of bells are achieved. This is where the Rebel Fist comes in.

    As the colonies grow to such a degree as to start making independence somewhat of a feasible option (I'm thinking of a combined 50% Colonial Strength to 75% Colonial Strength), the king will start to harass the player with unnecessary taxes, financial demands, and the sort. Up until this point (50% Colonial Strength) the king would have been primarily passive, and would have imposed extremely light tax rates (a maximum of 20%).

    As the Colonial Strength % (of the combined cities) gets higher, so would the maximum tax rate and frequency of harassment. I'm thinking;
    1-50% Colonial Strength would mean a maximum tax rate of 20% (leader or nation traits would cause slight variance).
    51-60% Colonial Strength would mean a maximum tax rate of 40%.
    61-75% Colonial Strength would mean a maximum tax rate of 60%.
    Finally 76%-100% Colonial Strength would create a maximum tax rate of 90%.

    The player will want to escape from the increasingly difficult king who wishes to suppress the newly feared growth of the colonies, and at some point (detailed below) will start producing Rebel Fists which in turn create a rebel sentiment %, which will lead to independence as it does now.

    The first city in your colony to produce 100% Colonial Strength will automatically produce a building called Revolutionary Presence (or Rebel Activity). This building will produce +1 Rebel Fists automatically, and can have colonists of any type assigned to work in it to produce even more Rebel Fists, up to 3 spaces. Rebel sentiment will be a percentage multiplier which increases production in the same way it currently does in the Liberty Bell system and stacks on top of the production multiplier the new Colonial Strength % provides. Rebel Activity will afterwards be automatically built in every city which attains to 75% or more Colonial Strength.

    The last sentence in the above paragraph is subject to additional info in revision 1a...

    ----------------

    1. Rebel Fists and Colonial Bells
    1a. Rebel Press and Pamphlets

    "Thomas Paine published Common Sense anonymously because of its treasonous content. Printed and sold by Robert Bell, Third Street, Philadelphia, it sold as many as 120,000 copies in the first three months, 500,000 in the first year, going through twenty-five editions in the first year alone." - Wikipedia

    As detailed in the aforementioned concept, the first city to achieve a 100% Colonial Strength percentage will automatically build the Rebel Activity building which will enable the production of Rebel Fists and therefore Rebel Sentiment.

    Once a city has Rebel Activity in it, it enables the building of the Rebel Press, which is a form of the newspaper but does not replace it. Rebel Activity is required to build Rebel Press. Colonists can be assigned to work at the Rebel Press, and they will be transforming wood (paper) into Pamphlets. Pamphlets cannot be bought or sold in Europe or elsewhere, they are strictly a specialty item used to kick off the endgame. Once a city has printed off 100 Pamphlets, the player may transform a colonist into a Pamphleteer in the same way that guns and horses are required to transform a colonist into a Dragoon.

    The Pamphleteer is a missionary type unit, in the sense that it seeds Rebel Activity in other cities. In the aforementioned concept, I detailed that every city following the first to achieve 75% Colonial Strength would automatically build Rebel Activity. This idea has been scrapped in favor of the Pamphleteer. Basically the player will produce Pamphlets out of wood, and then make Pamphleteers out of Pamphlets. The Pamphleteer will travel to neighboring cities and attempt to stir up the inhabitants into engaging in Rebel Activity. The odds will be high but not absolute. He will have a certain percentile chance to establish Rebel Activity (a mission) just as Missionaries to native settlements currently do.


    Some of this could maybe be one possible answer.

    The idea of splitting out the 'angry/rebellious' part from the 'productivity/expansion' part.

    Now some of this has already happened, culture is it's own yield/combo yield.

    But we could further split it so that Fealty boosts unit strength and your National Loyalty (the 50% rebellion threshold for your empire one)

    Law boosts the productivity of towns like fealty does now. (representing the applications of common laws, weights and measures, and the overall sense of security and well-being that comes from knowing bad behaviour will be punished and your assets will be protected.)

    We could then potentially reduce the amount of nationwide fealty needed to get the unit strength boost and ability to 'declare independence' as well as increase the anger it produces in the Pope.

    Without causing problems for growth, production and FF points.

    So potentially it could be something like 1 noble per city would be enough to get your rebellion going in X turns, rather than needing 2 or 3.

    We could then make the original Lux. Food unit good at producing law rather than fealty, so they can help get FFs and grow your economy and borders, and make the fealty producers a late game Lux. choice when you are preparing for war or for your final independence.
     
  4. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I tried and tried to get you to see what I was trying to say about this, but sometimes it takes a second witness;) I didn't really think about the splitting the results of Fealty up though as I didn't really get a chance to think it all through.

    When you think about it though, the more productive your settlements are the more the King/Pope is going to be greedy for a piece of it, thus raising Taxes. Currently I am attempting to produce a new type of play where you don't really have to worry about Taxes being raised but instead things are balanced in other ways. But, I do want to keep the King around for scenarios like having an Overlord, like the Mongols ruling over the Russians, that you have to over through.

    Anyway, this is some good ideas here and when we look at this again I'll have to go back and see what all we talked about but I like where this is going.
     
  5. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yeah, I think my issue before was the difficulty in producing enough fealty for a big kingdom, then the thought of producing another thing on top of all that fealty was too much. but if we make it so that you need much less fealty to get the job done, it would make an extra yield less 'taxing'.... get it 'taxing' cause that means two diffenrent things! I am funny...
     
  6. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Lib, you mentioned something in another thread that I had not realized... when I made the Conquests start no matter what Fealty you had, that pretty much killed any major reason to produce Fealty. If that part was still in the game you would have to start producing it early on so you would be able to start your Conquest on time, or lose. The AI still values Fealty a bunch so they usually start their conquests before time expires. With that in mind I continue to dwell on this...
     
  7. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yes, I still find it really hard to get a decent amount of fealty, I think I am just a failure, or I build things much bigger then the ai factions...

    I honestly don't know! I do feel like fealty is a worthwhile thing, I can just never seem to get anywhere with it after the early game...I also think logically it should be almost the primary yield of importance, because like I said before, if your kingdom isn't loyal to you, why do you have a kingdom at all?
     
  8. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    You are NOT a Failure!!!:gripe:

    We do need a Fealty change. In Colonization you and all your Units start out with 100% Fealty to your King and you have to build up their Rebel Sentiment to make them want to fight for Independence. Not the same in M:C.

    Even with the Pope theme, the People general followed religion over kings. If the King fail out of favor with the Church he fail out of favor with his people.

    One idea, Units could start with a certain amount of Fealty already, then slowly gain more or lose Fealty.

    What could effect Fealty?

    Working a Job you like
    Moving up in your Job
    Feelings of Security
    Freedom to practice your Religion
    Getting an Education
    Getting paid for their work (at least two Food per turn)
    War is generally bad
    High Taxes
    Excessive Labor

    There is a starter list, once we decide what effects Fealty we can figure out how to implement it in the game.
     
  9. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    What kind of performance drain would an individual fealty level for each unit have?

    Some other factors:
    Good governance (which is the current fealty building setup)
    A good market supply. (if you get what you want when you want it then you feel like your country is in good hands. Empty stalls would feel alarming)
    War. In someways war goes both ways. A defensive war would likely increase patriotism, an offensive war less so. Winning war is good, losing war is very bad.
    Religion. Same goes for religion. Religous freedom would boost fealty for each religion group, but if you have a main religion group, allowing other religions to prosper could have the opposite effect.
    Entertainment
    Festivals (these two would be a good use for gold, as a way to inject a block of fealty into a town, by hosting a festival of some kind there)
     
  10. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Done correctly it would be very little.

    How to set this up is in debate

    Yeah, and I had the Idea that peasants being attack by Bandits and the like would generate some anti-fealty as you work to secure your Empire with Strongholds and a good Military. Defeating these Enemies could increase Fealty.

    This would be a good time to have the Religion mod done.

    Some buildings like Taverns and Gambling halls could increase Fealty.

    There is actually starter code and commands for "Throwing a banquet" that I never got around to finishing. It required a certain amount of Yields to be in the City. Never determined its exact effects though.
     
  11. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I think some system of being able to 'buy' fealty in a city would be good. (as in a big chunk of fealty like enough for a 10 or 20 percent boost)

    This would require changing fealty from a 'rate' system, to a store system. As from what I read many moons ago about rebel sentiment was that it only takes into account what you produce per turn, not how much you produce in the span of the game.. or some such..
     
  12. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    Kailric became a performance expert overnight :eek:

    While the answer might be correct, I question if we want that feature. Attending the needs of each unit individually sounds too much like playing the sims. That's not the aim I have for modding.

    I hate that feature. Well not the feature, but the implementation. It is so hardcoded that I ended up with precompiler #ifdefs in order to make col 2071 work.

    At some point (not right now) we should replace it with some XML code. In fact I would like to look into commands in general. They are pretty hardcoded and leave little room for making mods unique.

    We have an XML for commands and we can add more data to the schema if we like. We could add:
    • cost (yield array)
    • must be on city (bool)
    • promotion requirement (int or array)
    • event type (int)
    Doing that, we could write generic DLL code, which checks for costs, presence of (own?) city and promotion requirement, which does precisely what the hardcoded code checks for right now. When the command is activated, it pays the price in the price from the yield array and then it triggers an event where the unit in question is an argument.

    This will allow us to make all sorts of XML only commands and if we encounter a limitation, then we need to add abilities to events, not commands. Generally speaking the more options events provides, the better the events can become, both random and triggered.

    It's a great thing you mentioned banquet. I replied to it saying I didn't like the implementation and I just sort of brainstormed on what could be done about it and I really like what I came up with. I seriously had no idea what to do about it 5 minutes ago :eek::crazyeye::lol:
     
  13. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Who needs to be an expert when you got a Nightinggale?

    The current system doesn't even represent your Units Fealty in the least so we are just brainstorming solutions here.

    That is actually not a bad idea, but it would just be for potential modders who may or may not even exist. Like I spent a lot of time making the Trade Route Screens none hardcoded and who knows if anyone will ever use it. Lib might for WHM but that's all the potential at the moment.

    Yeah, I do that a lot. I did that for my essays in college a bunch, I'd just start writing not knowing what all I was going to say and things just come to me. I get in trouble on here a bunch too doing that as you all shoot down my ideas almost as soon as they come to me ;)
     
  14. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    Col2071 could benefit too and so could M:C. Once the engine is done for using just XML, adding more commands will be really easy.

    But as I said: really low priority right now. We better finish what we started and aim directly for a release.

    I write what comes to my mind more often than you guys realize. Half the time when I write something, I end up not posting it because I get stuck half way though or realize a problem. Once I'm done, I preview to see if it makes sense.
     
  15. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    That's where you and I differ, I rely on you guys to point out my problems ;)
     
  16. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    :ar15: The Machine Gun of Ideas!

    I love everything xml based! It's awesome!

    Archid is currently turning everything that was hardcoded in the .dll (or python) for FTTW into crazy amounts of xml opitons and tags... it's epic!

    I think one thing we have to accept about our work here for M:C and Col. in general, is that chances are masses of people are not going to see it, play it, or engage with it... because we are working on a game that is... nearly a decade old?

    But most gamers are idiots anyway! FPS, Graphics, oooooh..

    We are working in the high art of the turn based strategy, we are working for the discerning, the smart, the learners, we are working for the rare!

    I think part of the problem of the small modder base of Col. is that it is hard to do much of anything with it, because it is so hard coded.

    I remember when I first approached the idea of Col. modding, for the possibility of jumping from civ to col for FTTW (long ago when it was an unworking mess) I tried to fiddle with one yield to make it a medical supply and the game crashed.

    That ws the end of my plans to work with Col.

    For every system that moves from .dll or python, to an xml system, you open up the possibility for a new guy, who dreams of doing a mod, who has this idea and plan of how it could play, to actually be able to do it.

    You open up the possibility for guys like me.

    I am not a coder, unless my health changes I will never be a coder (the amount of personal investment is just too much), I accept that my strengths and skills lay else where.

    With every game element that moves from hard code to xml tag, I have a chance to make, to engage with that game concept, and take it some place new.

    Every xml system that you build into Col. will make it an even more modder friendly game than it is now. That is a cool achievement!

    If I ever have the chance to actually make a game, that is the sort of game I would like to have at the end.
    One that can be a 'Total Conversion Mod' with little more skill that the ability to use a word processor (nobody mention graphics....shhhh).

    That is what you guys are making and I think it is pretty awesome.

    It will lead to The Rise of The Planet of The Monkeys
     
  17. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    That look reasonable. First you fail quite badly in obtaining medical supplies and now your health is failing.

    I'm actually ok with you being "just" an XML modder. To be honest I think we spend too much time developing DLL features and too little time enabling those features in XML. I think we severely underestimate the importance of a good XML setup.
     
  18. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yes, my one last hope of medical treatment, the col. game engine..... failed me... :health::yuck::health:
     
  19. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Ok, I am making some changes here. I have changed Culture to Law (Night loves it when names don't match up;)) with Culture being a Combination of Law, Education, and Religion.

    Now, what should law do? With the Fealty to Admin change we could turn the Fealty calculation into a Multi state calculation and allow several things to influence Fealty. Perhaps the combination of Prosperity and Culture results.

    Anyway, the abstract Yields should all have a unique function. Below is some collected ideas on this, some current and some proposed. The exact formulas are up for debate but this looks like a good start.

    Hammers-> Production
    Admin-> Represents organization of Labor and Military maneuvers. Stat for Prosperity and Fealty.
    Religion-> Stat for Culture and Prosperity.
    Research-> Provides Techs.
    Education-> Stat for Culture and Prosperity. Educates citizens.
    Law-> Represents the distribution of Law, Order, and just weights and measures. Stat for Culture and Fealty. Rehabilitates criminals.

    Multi Yield Stats

    Culture-> expands your borders
    Prosperity-> promotes Immigration, enticing others to join your realm.
    Fealty-> strengthens your units, adds production bonuses

    Edit Notes:

    Should religion effect Fealty as a persons devotion to a religion can promote happiness, and it also strengthens units morale.
     
  20. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Ok, I am a bit confused now.

    Primarily with Admin and Fealty. What is the difference and how is the difference applied in game?

    Beyond the fact that Fealty is a combo yield and admin. is not.

    Because the description implies they do the same thing. Namely what Fealty has done all along.

    Is it that admin is applied to the 'fealty city bar' system (only affect locally) and fealty affects the Global Rebellion Bar (Global)?

    I think Prosperity and Culture Should feed into Fealty, so religion goes in but not directly.

    Fealty then effects your 'Global Rebel Sentiment', which should affect unit strength bonuses (I think this is where unit strength boost value comes from? Am I right?)

    Admin. just effects production level/bonus of each city it is present in.

    I think Fealty Represents your ability to provide society for your people.

    It draws them away from dependence on the Catholic Church and the Pope to provide these things for them.

    You provide them with the means for Law, Religion, etc. and they no longer feel the need to look to the Pope for these things.

    Your Soldiers become more loyal and stronger because they believe the way of Life you provide for your people is worth laying down their lives for.

    They Move from Goaded Militia to Defenders of The Realm.

    Perhaps Law could turn criminals into serfs if they are inside a prison, limited space means faster production leads to faster criminal converts freeing up space.

    Perhaps it could also convert Serfs to Free Peasants if the Serf works in the court(or whatever the law building is) So you sacrifice some law production for the conversion of serfs (as in serfs produce less law than other workers) then Peasants can be educated to gain specialisms.
    So you lose the serf field production boost, but gain the ability to make them a full blown specialist instead.
    That makes Law a part of a Long Term Development Strategy.
     

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