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Feature: WEAPONS LICENSES

Discussion in 'Civ4 - World 2009 Mod' started by DVS, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Ok, in the name of keeping the Features thread somewhat reasonable, I thought this one could use it's own thread. This has been discussed all over the place, so let's get all the ideas in here and create a guideline for how this feature will work.

    First thing's first, make sure you post if you have seen this in another mod. I haven't.

    I will use the post below to outline what I can come up elaborating on ideas that have been thrown around here and over YIM.

    As always please correct me and contribute any and all ideas you have on the subject.
     
  2. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    So in my mind this feature works as follows:

    The world's 5 major weapons manufacturers are typically referred to as being

    USA
    UK
    France
    China
    Russia

    Russia has dropped down, but IMO is important enough to be kept on the list. Post WWII these are the big 5.

    Here is the wikipedia page to use as a reference.

    So these are represented in our game by the following civs:

    USA
    NATO
    EU
    China
    Russia

    The WEAPONS LICENSES will function like resources. Ideally traded from a separate drop down list on the diplomacy screen.

    Each of these 5 nations will have (at least) one custom unit for each class. By default, they are the only nation who can build their units.

    Without licenses, any other country in our game will only be able to build very rudimentary units, plus their special unit(s). We have to decide whether or not we want to give every country one set of licenses they can lease for their special unit, or just keep it to the big 5. This I think would depend on how much turn time this feature eats up.

    So, the big 5 companies have a special building for each unit (Lockheed martin headquarters, etc etc, we'll have to get creative, maybe some buildings give multiple licenses). Each building gives the civ one license (resource) for every civ in the game (so 48), for the unit(s) it represents. These licenses can then be traded (leased) to others civs who have the required technology and resources, which enables the purchasing civ to build the unit in cities with applicable barracks/air force factories/dockyards etc.

    Gaining one of these licenses can sometimes reveal techs. Some of the more advanced ones will probably have to be quite expensive with the AI very unlikely to trade them at all. But ones like say Russia's T-72 will be cheaper and quite likely to be traded for a fair price to all but enemies of Russia.

    So a quick example;

    You are playing as America. You start with a Northrop Grumman headquarters in Washington. This building gives you (the USA) 48 licenses for the "B-2 Spirit" unit. So immediately, you can build it. This works like how getting oil lets you build units, only you are the only person who can get this resource (license), like how Broadway gives you the Hit Musicals resource.

    You then have the option to rent out licenses to your friends and allies, exactly as you would resources. This example is one that only the USA has right now, so at least until a civ catches up to the related techs that the US will exclusively start with (stealth, GPS for example), there should be almost no circumstance of them leasing it. Even once other civs catch up, they should only lease it to their closest allies.


    So, repeat that for every class of unit for the 5 big arms dealers, and boom, we have a much more realistic representation of how militaries are built, and the profits that go to the dealer nations. Not to mention, each country's army will remain unique as they expand, since different countries will have different combinations of licenses.

    We may want to make it 6 and give Japan a bunch of licenses, or 7 and include Saudi Arabia, or 8 and include India. Maybe these nations should simply have fewer licenses than the big 5. Perhaps sheep21 can enlighten me as to what would be appropriate here, he clearly is the most familiar with what is in production and by whom. :D


    To avoid making this an AI/newb trap, we will have to limit each non-dealer civ to being able to lease only one license per class at a time.

    Ideally of course, it would be great if the AI could focus first on acquiring licenses for unit classes it needs. I think it may work best if a civ has to have (X) amount of oil saved up before being able to buy licenses for units that require oil (to avoid them spending all their money on licenses while they can't make units), but we'll have to tinker around with that when we see how the AI handles it. Perhaps they only try to acquire new licenses at times when they want to build military units, and only keep a few cheaper licenses in peace time.
     
  3. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Other major edits that will have to be made (ideally):

    It would be excellent to have units lose hit points the more the licenses are shared. To a limit.

    For example:

    Every T-72 tank in the world will lose (x) hitpoints for every (x) licenses ever traded, up to (x) hitpoints. After it has been traded a certain amount of times, it bottoms out. This gives dealer nations incentive to keep advanced units to themselves and their close friends, and yet to sell older units to as many civs as they can. The AI will have to understand this, perhaps use the algorithm they use to decide whether to trade techs (which I am not familiar with).

    And also,

    In a battle, you get get an (x) percent increase in the chance of defeating (or shooting down, whatever) units you have or have ever had the license for. Bombers and jets should become more likely to be shot down, the impact of their successful bombing missions would not be affected.

    For nukes, perhaps we can make having or having had the specific unit increase your chances of shooting it down with one of the two missile defense systems. Clearly having the same kind of nuke does not affect the damage it would inflict on cities/units.


    This (reduced effectiveness?) would really compliment the license feature, but if we can't do it, the license feature will still work.
     
  4. Sigo

    Sigo Chieftain

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    As the congressial report showed the main weapon export countries in the period from 2000 to 2007 were:

    1.USA - 123 billion dollars
    2.Russia - 62 billions dollars
    3.France
    4.Great Britain/Israel

    China doen't really sell much of its weaponry it rather buys a lot mostly from Russia(Subs, Ships and planes) but also from France.

    This feature was employed in some Civ 3 mod where every nation has some "weapon" resources scattered around it territory.

    Great idea about lower combat effectivness but how should it be emplemented? Through promotions may be?

    And also should the exporters be able to buy from each other? I think not...

    As for India and Saudi Arabia they are buyers, not sellers - India builds it's own weaponry but its usually projects cooperated with Russia or France, as for Saudi Arabia- they buy weapons from all the top four sellers.

    I think Germany, Israel and maybe Sweden or Iran wolud be nice here
     
  5. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    This is quite amazing. I have been kicking an idea around in my head, very similar to your weapons licenses. In my head, they were blueprints. And just like Broadway, I had envisioned a wonder which gave you blueprints required to build certain advanced units. You would then be able to sell blueprints to the other civs. Eventually, a certain tech would obsolete one particular blueprint, so everyone would be able to build said unit. I had envisioned two, maybe three blueprint resources (so Blueprints I would really allow you to build more than one type of unit, Blueprints II more advanced units, and Blueprints III the most advanced).

    There are a few things I need to clarify (which perhaps you know):

    1) Is there any way to limit the amount of resources available from a wonder/HQ? Having the same amount of resources/licenses/blueprints as civs is not a good mechanic, IMO. A maximum of 5-10 licenses with 48 players might be a good number.

    2) If a resource/license/blueprint is obsoleted, is it then impossible to build the unit which originally required it? Or, does it indeed mean that all civ's can then build the unit, as the resource requirement is moot?
     
  6. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    smafusmith already has this working for his blood and iron mod, using what he's calling blueprints as additional resources. Sounds almost exactly like what we are doing, so it should be no problem for us to do this.


    @Ninja2: 1- We can limit them to whatever we want. Personally I don't see why they should be limited, in real life a country could choose to sell them to as many other countries as it wants. Hopefully we can achieve my idea of having the units lose effectiveness for every x number of licenses sold, but we may not be able to.

    2- I don't know if we are going to have any units become obsolete. We are only making the present, not the future, so I don't see how or why we do that.


    glad to have your input and interest in our mod :goodjob:
     
  7. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    Actually, I wanted the blueprints to become obsolete! :) The effect would be that after X amount of years, all civs could build the unit which a number of civs, via the blueprints, had exclusive rights to. So the advantage is only temporary.
     
  8. sheep21

    sheep21 Chieftain

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    that does not reflect the world alas:

    for example, the USS Enterprise Nuclear Super Carrier, was built in 1961. Just because it is 40+ years old and the plans are most likely nearing 50 years old doesnt mean every tom dick and harry can build a US Style super carrier of the same design.

    Some tech does fliter down but generally military tech\design is closely guarded and stays private for a lonnnng time.
     
  9. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    Reality doesn't always make for good games. Besides, in CIV, anyone can build the Enterprise equivalent with the appropriate tech.
     
  10. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Unfortunately you may not like our mod then! All we are trying to do is make things as realistic as possible.
     
  11. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Ninja2: From what I have found, I can't see a way to make the blueprints obsolete, and then everyone able to make the unit. Will keep trying/thinking.
     

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