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Discussion in 'Civ4 - Arda Mod (LOTR)' started by Sengir, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    2,471
    - New civs, including new UU & UB, citylist, leaders
    Spoiler :
    Civs (latest list I could find)
    Spoiler :
    Noldor Empire
    Race: Elves
    Leaders: Fëanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel

    Teleri Empire
    Race: Elves
    Leader: Olwë, Thingol, Círdan

    Avari Empire
    Race: Elves
    Leader: [Made-up Elf]

    Longbeard Empire
    Race: Dwarves
    Leader: Dúrin, Dàin

    Firebeard Empire
    Race: Dwarves
    Leader: Azaghâl, Telchar

    Edain Empire
    Race: Good Men
    Leaders: ???

    Arnor Empire
    Race: Good Men
    Leaders: Isildur, Aragorn Elessar

    Rohirrim Empire
    Race: Good Men
    Leaders: Eorl, Helm, Théoden

    Northmen Empire
    Race: Good Men
    Leaders: Vidugavia, Bard

    Dunlending Empire
    Race: Evil Men / Orcs / Uruk-hai
    Leaders: Freca, Saruman

    Easterling Empire
    Race: Evil Men
    Leader: Khamûl

    Haradrim Empire
    Race: Evil Men
    Leaders: Herumor

    Angmar Empire
    Race: Evil Men / Orcs
    Leader: Ulfang, Witch King

    The Shadow
    Race: Orcs / Uruk-Hai / [much more!]
    Leaders: Melkor, Sauron


    UB
    Spoiler :


    UU
    Spoiler :
    VANYAR: Shining Host (replaces Swordsman, starts with combat1 & drill1).

    NOLDOR: Jewelsmith (replaces Worker, adds 1 per turn to every mine or mill).

    TELERI: Swanship (replaces Caravel, +1 movement, starts with combat1 & sentry).

    SINDAR: March Warden (replaces Archer, starts with woodsman1&2).

    FALATHRIM: Shorebark (replaces Galley, +1 movement, +1 carrying capacity).

    NANDOR: Greenbow (replaces Archer, starts with woodsman1 & sentry).

    NUMENOREAN: Pallaran (replaces Galleon, +2 strength, +1 carrying capacity).

    ARNOR: Ranger (replaces Maceman, starts with march & mobility).

    GONDOR: Sentry (replaces Pikeman, starts with city garrison1 & charge).

    NORTHMAN: Beorning (replaces Spearman, +1 strength, starts with woodsman1).

    ROHIRRIM: Mearas (replaces Knight, +1 strength, starts with shock).

    DUNLAND: Dun Warrior (replaces Swordsman, starts with formation & drill1).

    HARADRIM: Mumakil (replaces War Elephant, +2 strength, starts with formation).

    EASTERLING: Wainrider (replaces Chariot, +2 strength, starts with city raider1).

    LONGBEARD DWARF: Baruk Khazad (replaces Axeman, starts with city garrison1 & guerilla1).

    FIREBEARD DWARF: Masked Axer (replaces Axeman, starts with shock & guerilla1).

    THE SHADOW: Uruk-hai (replaces Swordsman, +1 movement, starts with cover & shock).

    ANGMAR: Hillman (replaces Maceman, starts with city raider 1 & guerilla1).

    GONDOR: Tower Guards (replaces Pikeman, starts with city garrison1 & charge).

    NORTHMAN: Daleman (replaces Spearman, +1 strength, starts with woodsman1).

    LONGBEARD DWARF: Dragon Hunters (replaces Axeman, starts with city garrison1 & guerilla1).


    - New unit lines
    Spoiler :
    found two lists:
    Spoiler :
    For the units, I've thought of having a basic set of units for the humans (Edain and Middle Men), and each group of civs (the Sindar, the Noldor, the Dwarves, the Easterlings, the Haradrim, the Silvan elves, the Shadow) would have their own change of those units. For example, there would be a Swordsman, a Noldo Swordsman, a Dwarf Swordsman, an Orc Swordsman, etc. Also, Each civ should have some unique units that makes it different from the others of the same group: for example, the Rohirrim should have more cavalry units ("éoreds", for example), the Easterlings should have some chariots, the Haradrim should have Oliphants, the Shadow should have Balrogs, Dragons, werewolves, vampires, flames, etc.
    Here are my ideas for the standart units (--> means upgrades to):

    Swords:
    Warrior: Strength 5, movement 1, hammer cost 30, requires Bronze Working tech and a metal resource (bronze, iron)
    --> Swordsman: Strength 7, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Iron Working tech and a metal resource (iron only)
    --> Long Swordsman: Strength 10, movement 1, hammer cost 55, requires Long Swords tech and a iron resource
    --> Swordsmaster: Strength 15, movement 1, hammer cost 80, requires Swordsmanship tech and a iron resource
    --> Infantry: Strength 18, movement 1, hammer cost 95, requires Total War tech and a iron resource
    --> Heavy Infantry: Strength 21, movement, hammer cost 110, requires Plate Armor tech and a iron resource

    Poles:
    Spearman: Strength 4, movement 1, hammer cost 25, requires Hunting tech and a metal resource (iron or copper), +50% vs Cavalry units
    --> Phalanx: Strength 6, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Infantry Tactics tech and a metal resource (iron or copper), +50% vs Cavalry units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Lanceman: Strength 8, movement 1, hammer cost 55, requires Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 50% vs Cavalry units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Halberdier: Strength 8, movement 1, hammer cost 55, requires Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 25% vs Cavalry units, +25% vs Melee units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Pikeman: Strength 12, movement 1, hammer cost 90, requires Superior Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 75% vs Cavalry units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Partisan: Strength 12, movement 1, hammer cost 90, requires Superior Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 50% vs Cavalry units, +25% vs Melee units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    Javelin Thrower

    Axes:
    Axeman: Strength 5, movement 1, hammer cost 35, requires Weaponry tech and a metal resource (iron or copper), +50% vs Melee units
    --> Great-Axeman: Strength 7, movement 1, hammer cost 50, requires Battle Axes tech and a iron resource, +50% vs Melee units
    Axethrower: Strength 5, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Weaponry tech and a metal resource (iron or copper), +40% vs Melee units, 1 1st stryke
    Clubs:
    Maceman: Strength 10, movement 1, hammer cost 75, requires Improved Smithing tech and a iron resource, +50% vs Melee units
    --> Hammerer: Strength 12, movement 1, hammer cost 95, requires War Hammer tech and a iron resource, +50% vs Melee units
    --> Mauler: Strength 15, movement 1, hammer cost 125, requires Total War tech, a iron resource, +50% vs Melee units

    Bows:
    Bowman: Strength 3, movement 1, hammer cost 20, requires Archery tech, +50% when defending cities and +10% when defending hills, 1 1st strike
    --> Archer: Strength 6, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Sharpshooting tech, +50% when defending cities and +25% when defending hills, 1 1st strike
    --> Longbowman: Strength 9, movement 1, hammer cost 60, requires Longbows tech, +50% when defending cities and +25% when defending hills, 2 1st strikes
    --> Advanced Archer: Strength 12, movement 1, hammer cost 90, requires Total War tech, +50% when defending cities and +25% when defending hills, 3 1st strikes
    --> Crossbowman: Strength 15, movement 1, hammer cost 100, requires Crossbows tech, +20% vs Melee units, 2 1st strikes

    Mounted, Swords:
    Knight: Strength 7, movement 2, hammer cost 50, requires Cavalry Tactics tech, a Horses resource and a metal resource (iron or copper), it does not receive defense bonuses
    --> Paladin: Strength 10, movement 2, hammer cost 70, requires Chivalry tech, a Horses resource and a Iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses
    --> Heavy Cavalry: Strength 20, movement 2, hammer cost 140, requires Total War tech, a Horses resource and a Iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses

    Mounted, Spears:
    Horseman: Strength 6, movement 2, hammer cost 45, requires Mounted Combat tech, a Horses resource and a metal resource (iron or copper), it does not receive defense bonuses and has +20% vs Cavalry units
    --> Rider: Strength 8, movement 2, hammer cost 60, requires Combined Armies tech, a Horses resource and a iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses and has +30% vs Cavalry units
    --> Light Cavalry: Strength 13, movement 3, hammer cost 100, requires Horsemanship tech, a Horses resource and a iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses and has +30% vs Cavalry units

    Mounted, Bows:
    Mouted Bowman: Strength 4, movement 2, hammer cost 30, requires Horseback Riding and Archery techs, and a Horses resource, it does not receive defense bonuses, has 1 1st strike
    --> Mounted Archer: Strength 8, movement 2, hammer cost 50, requires Strategy and Sharpshooting techs and a Horses resource, it does not receive defense bonuses, has 1 1st strike
    --> Horse Archer: Strength 12, movement 3, hammer cost 90, requires Military Training and Sharpshooting techs and a Horses resource, it does not receive defense bonuses, has 1 1st strike

    Siege:
    Ram: Strength 0, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Siege Warfare tech, can bombard city defenses (-15%)
    --> Stone Thrower: Strength 4, movement 1, hammer cost 60, requires Improved Siege Warfare tech, can bombard city defenses (-20%), causes collateral damage
    --> Catapult: Strength 8, movement 1, hammer cost 110, requires Ballistics tech, can bombard city defenses (-35%), causes collateral damage
    --> Trebuchet: Strength 10, movement 1, hammer cost 200, requires Trebuchets tech, can bombard city defenses (-50%), causes collateral damage
    --> Siege Tower: Strength 6, movement 1, hammer cost 80, requires Advanced Siege Warfare tech, can bombard city defenses (-25%)

    Great People:
    Great Loremaster (Scientist)
    Great Craftsman (Engineer)
    Great Bard (Artist)
    Great Leader (Genneral)

    Civilian:
    Settler
    Worker


    Spoiler :
    Warrior: Strength 3/3, movement 1, hammer cost 30, Basic. upgrades to all

    Swordsman: Strength 5/3, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Iron Working tech and a metal resource (iron only)
    --> Long Swordsman: Strength 9/5, movement 1, hammer cost 55, requires Long Swords tech and a iron resource
    --> Swordsmaster: Strength 14/10, movement 1, hammer cost 80, requires Swordsmanship tech and a iron resource
    --> Lieutenant: Strength 18/14, movement 1, hammer cost 95, requires Total War tech and a iron resource (Limit 5) increases Morale
    --> Captain: Strength 21/18, movement 1, hammer cost 110, requires Plate Armor tech and a iron resource (Limit 3)

    Poles:
    Spearman: Strength 2/4, movement 1, hammer cost 25, requires Hunting tech and a metal resource (iron or copper), +50% vs Cavalry units
    --> Javlineer: Strength 3/6, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Infantry Tactics tech and a metal resource (iron or copper), +50% vs Cavalry units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Lanceman: Strength 4/8, movement 1, hammer cost 55, requires Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 50% vs Cavalry units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Halberdier: Strength 8/4, movement 1, hammer cost 55, requires Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 25% vs Cavalry units, +25% vs Melee units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Pikeman: Strength 8/12, movement 1, hammer cost 90, requires Superior Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 75% vs Cavalry units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands
    --> Phalanx: Strength 12/8, movement 1, hammer cost 90, requires Superior Pole Weapons tech and a iron resource, + 50% vs Cavalry units, +25% vs Melee units and +10% when defending hills, plains or grasslands


    Axes:
    Axeman: Strength 5/2, movement 1, hammer cost 35, requires Weaponry tech and a metal resource (iron or copper), +50% vs Melee units
    --> Axe bearer: Strength 7/2, movement 1, hammer cost 50, requires Battle Axes tech and a iron resource, +50% vs Melee units
    -->Maceman: Strength 10/2, movement 1, hammer cost 75, requires Improved Smithing tech and a iron resource, +50% vs Melee units
    Dwarven UU: Hammerer: 10/5
    Shadow/Dunland UU: Mauler: 14/2

    Bows:
    Bowman: Strength 1/3, movement 1, hammer cost 20, requires Archery tech, +50% when defending cities and +10% when defending hills, 1 1st strike
    --> Archer: Strength 2/6, movement 1, hammer cost 40, requires Sharpshooting tech, +50% when defending cities and +25% when defending hills, 1 1st strike
    --> Longbowman: Strength 3/9, movement 1, hammer cost 60, requires Longbows tech, +50% when defending cities and +25% when defending hills, 2 1st strikes
    --> Flurry: Strength 4/12, movement 1, hammer cost 90, requires Total War tech, +50% when defending cities and +25% when defending hills, 3 1st strikes
    --> Crossbowman: Strength 5/15, movement 1, hammer cost 100, requires Crossbows tech, +20% vs Melee units, 2 1st strikes

    Mounted, Swords:
    Rider: Strength 7/1, movement 2, hammer cost 50, requires Cavalry Tactics tech, a Horses resource and a metal resource (iron or copper), it does not receive defense bonuses
    --> Cavalier: Strength 10/1, movement 2, hammer cost 70, requires Chivalry tech, a Horses resource and a Iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses
    Rohan UU: Rider of Rohan (movement 3)
    --> Heavy Cavalry: Strength 15/2, movement 2, hammer cost 140, requires Total War tech, a Horses resource and a Iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses
    Rohan UU: Eorlingas (movement 3)

    Mounted, Spears:
    Horseman: Strength 6/1, movement 2, hammer cost 45, requires Mounted Combat tech, a Horses resource and a metal resource (iron or copper), it does not receive defense bonuses and has +20% vs Cavalry units
    --> Knight: Strength 8/1, movement 2, hammer cost 60, requires Combined Armies tech, a Horses resource and a iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses and has +30% vs Cavalry units
    --> Light Cavalry: Strength 13/1, movement 3, hammer cost 100, requires Horsemanship tech, a Horses resource and a iron resource, it does not receive defense bonuses and has +30% vs Cavalry units

    Mounted, Bows:
    Mouted Bowman: Strength 4/2, movement 2, hammer cost 30, requires Horseback Riding and Archery techs, and a Horses resource, it does not receive defense bonuses, has 1 1st strike
    --> Mounted Archer: Strength 8/4, movement 2, hammer cost 50, requires Strategy and Sharpshooting techs and a Horses resource, it does not receive defense bonuses, has 1 1st strike
    --> Horse Archer: Strength 12/6, movement 3, hammer cost 90, requires Military Training and Sharpshooting techs and a Horses resource, it does not receive defense bonuses, has 1 1st strike



    - New techtree
    Spoiler :
    AGE OF THE STARS
    Mining, Copper Working, Bronze Working, Jewelry, Wood Working, Fishing, Sailing, The Runes, Farming, Domestication, Hunting, Fortification
    FIRST AGE OF THE SUN
    Archery, Iron Working, Steel Working, Masonry, Chain Mail, Weaponry, Professional Armies, Mounted Combat, Siege Warfare, Tradition Keeping, Poetry, Music, Monarchy, Trade, Heraldry, Diplomacy, The Court, Infantry Tactics, Horseback Riding, Stone Working, Cavalry Tactics, Smithing, Ship Building
    SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
    Chivalry, Pole Weapons, Navigation, Naval Warfare, Construction, Mithril Working, Sharpshooting, Strategy, Composed Armies, Outposts, Trade Posts, Healing, Vassalage, Migration, Long Swords, Battle Axes, Fortresses, Improved Warfare, Literature, Commerce, Treaties, Council of Wises, Improved Smithing
    THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
    Advanced Smithing, War Hammers, Weapon Mastery, Longbows, Superior Pole Weapons, Swordsmanship, Advanced Siege Warfare, Ballistics, Engineering, Military Training, Horsemanship, Naval Tatics, Signal Fires, Exploration, Alliances, History, Great Trade Routes, Currency, The Wizards, The White Council, Stewardship, Total War
    FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN
    Crossbows, Trebuchets, Plate Armor, Machines, Feudalism, The Peace, Age of Men (Future Tech)


    - New buildings
    Spoiler :
    Palisade: +5% city defense, requires Wood Working, costs 40 hammers
    Walls: +10% city defense, requires the Stone Working tech, costs 100 hammers, halved cost with stone, doesn't stack with Palisade
    Castle: +15% city defense, requires the Siege Warfare tech, costs 150 hammers, halved cost with stone, requires Walls
    Fortress: +25% city defense, requires the Fortresses tech, costs 250 hammers, requires stone, requires Castle
    Stronghold: +35% city defense, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness, requires the Engineering tech, costs 400 hammers, requires stone, requires Fortress, limit of 2 per civ
    Fortified Wall: +20% city defense, requires the Improved Siege Warfare tech, costs 180 hammers, requires stone, requires Walls
    Wooden Tower: +10% defense, costs 100 hammers, requires Palisade, requires the Fortification tech
    Tower: +30% city defense, free promo to units built in the city, requires the Fortification tech, costs 300 hammers, requires stone, requires Walls, limit of 5 per civ
    Barracks: +2 XP to units built in the city, costs 60 hammers
    Training Field: free promo to Melee units built in the city, costs 85 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Infantry Tatics tech
    Archery Field: free promo to Ranged units built in the city, costs 85 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Sharpshooting tech
    Stables: free promo to Mounted units built in the city, costs 85 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Cavalry Tatics tech
    Siege Weapons Workshop: free promo to Siege units built in the city, costs 125 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Improved Siege Warfare tech
    Havens: +2 XP to units built in the city, costs 100 hammers, requires the Ship Building tech
    Drydocks: free promo to Naval units built in the city, costs 130 hammers, requires Havens, requires the Naval Warfare tech
    Market: +50% commerce in the city, +1 happiness from trade goods, 2 Merchants, costs 150 hammers, requires the Commerce tech
    Grocer: +25% commerce, + 1 health from food resources, 1 Merchant, costs 115 hammers, requires the Trade tech
    Town Hall: -50% maintenace costs in the city, costs 170 hammers, requires the The Court tech
    Tavern: +1 happiness, +1 happiness from Wine, 1 Merchant, costs 115 hammers, requires the Monarchy tech
    Inn: +1 trade route in the city, +1 happiness, +1 Health, costs 200 hammers, requires the Great Trade Routes tech
    Well: +1 Health, costs 80 hammers
    Houses of Cure +2 Health, free promo (Medic I?) to units built in the city, costs 300 hammers, requires the Healing tech, limit of 5
    Granary: stores half of the food when the city grows, +1 health from food resources, costs 80 hammers, requires the Farming tech
    Docks: +1 food in water tiles, costs 90 hammers, requires the Sailing tech
    Harbor: +1 trade route, +25% commerce, +1 happiness from sea food resources, costs 150 hammers, requires the Navigation tech
    Archives: +25% research, +1 culture, +1 happiness for each 20% of gold going to culture, 1 Loremaster, costs 110 hammers, requires the Tradition Keeping tech
    Library: +25% research, +1 culture, +1 happiness, 1 Loremaster, costs 160 hammers, requires the Literature tech, requires Archives
    Houses of Lore: +50% research, +2 culture, +1 happiness, 2 Loremasters, costs 250 hammers, requires the History tech, requires Library
    Guild of Artists: +20% culture in the city, costs 115 hammers, requires the Poetry tech
    Guild of Minstrels: +2 culture, +1 happiness, costs 115 hammers, requires the Music tech
    Forge: +50% production in the city, -1 health, costs 65 hammers, requires the Bronze Working tech
    Armory: +5% (?) unit production, free promo to ranged units (Extra Ammonition), costs 115 hammers, requires the Weaponry tech
    Armorsmith: free promo to units built in the city, costs 100 hammers, requires the Chain Mail tech, requires Iron
    Blacksmith: free promo to units built in the city, +25 production in the city, costs 125 hammers, requires the Smithing tech, requires Iron
    Weaponsmith: free promo to units built in the city, costs 200 hammers, requires the Weapon Mastery tech, requires Iron, requires Blacksmith
    Post Office: -50% war weariness, costs 100 hammers, requires the Trade Posts tech
    Guard's House: -25% War Weariness, free promo, costs 110 hammers, requires the Vassalage tech
    Jail: -25% war weariness, costs 50 hammers, requires the Diplomacy tech
    Town Square: +1 happiness, costs 80 hammers (perhaps add a "Urbanization" tech?)

    - New religions (might drop shrines, not sure)
    Spoiler :
    The system for religions in this mod is quite simplistic, and is more like an alignment system, to represent the influence of Morgoth's corruption and the blessings of the Valar on the world. We don't have missionaries. It originaly had 3 religions, but in the final it will have 5:
    Worship the Darkness: fastest spreading, gives mostly military bonuses. Allways founded by The Shadow, helps linking civs to it - they get corrupted, like the Haradrim or Easterlings, or Numenor in the time of it's fall - as neither Morgoth nor Sauron are likely to make allies or stay in peace very long.
    Light of Aman: slow spreading, and gives cultural and scientific bonuses. It represents the influence of the Elves that came from Valinor on other peoples, like the Edain or the dwarves of the Blue Mountains/Khazad-Dûm. These peoples were much less likely to serve the Shadow, and were more "cultured" and "elvish".
    Reverence for Eru: normal spreading, gives building bonuses and minor culture. Represents the religion of Numenor and the alike, a kind of Neutral religion, that speeds the development and can be founded (in the 2nd Age) by anyone except the Shadow.
    Reverence for the Ancestors: a dwarven religion, gives huge building bonuses, but is the slowest spreading of all.
    Commune with Nature: a civ with slow spreading, that gives health bonuses (maybe enables a Environmentalism-like civic), and probably the religion of the Wood Elves - thought anyone may found it in the 2nd Age.

    - No Corps
    - New wonders
    Spoiler :
    -Hornburg (Helm's Deep)
    -Rivendell
    -Paths of Dead (allow to make Deaths of Dunharrow units)
    -The Last March of the Ents (make hostile Ents randomly spawn at the map)
    -The Shire (National, allows to make Hobbits)
    -The Lay of Leithian (Heroic Epic)
    -Barad-Dûr (Dark Tower)
    -Thangorodhrim (Towers of the evil capital in the first age)
    -Dúrin's Tower (at the top of the Moria, where Gandalf fought the Balrog)
    -The Gate of the Noldor (the Gate of the Elves, a secret passage to their city)
    -The Great Fountains (of Gondolin, one great elven city)
    -The Noldolantë (National Epic)
    -Orthanc (tower of Isengard)
    -The Arkenstone (a very valuable gem of the dwarves)
    -Henneth Annûn (a refuge and outpost of Gondor)
    -PalantÃ*ri (allows to build the Palantir national unit)
    -Ring of Power (National wonder)
    -Elven Ring (the same, but doesn't get controled by sauron - they removed the rings before he could do so)
    -The White Tree (National)
    -The Seven Beacons
    -Lake's City
    -Forge of Ëol (one great elven-smith)
    -Dagorlad
    -Cirith Ungol (allows to make Laracna)

    Palantiri
    Silmarils
    Trees of the Valar
    Grand Leaguer (ie the siege of Angband)
    Ultimate Hoard
    Voyage of Earendil
    White Council
    Rings of Power
    Silverdome Temple (of Numenor, as previously mentioned)
    Great Armament (Ar-Pharazon's force, intended to attack Valinor)
    Argonath
    Houses of Healing
    Statue of Manwe
    Saruman's Industry
    Tower of Meneldur
    Mindon Eldalieva

    - New terrains (possibly, not sure)
    - New resources
    - New promotions (possibly, not sure)
    Spoiler :
    About the promotions for this mod, I think we should have 4 categories of promos: Specializations, that greatly increase the power at certain occasions (like City Raider and Shock); Trainings, that increase the power in all situations (like Combat and Flanking); Equipment, with various effects (like Weapons or Armor); and Skills, that change some circunstances of the unit (like Seaborne, the renamed Amphibious, and Tireless, the renamed Blytz; but also the "magic" powers and more powerful effects like Doom - see the Fell Beasts and Evil Heroes topic - and spells).
    For the unit categories, I sugest: Melee, Ranged, Siege, Civilian (Settlers and Workers), Mounted, Flying, Beasts, Heroes, Kings, and Ships.
    We should have most of the core game promos (except the obvious - Ambush, as we don't have Armored units, for example), but some renamed: Medic to Healer, March to Regeneration, Guerrilla to Ranger, Commando to Tatics, Blytz to Tireless, Amphibious to Seaborne, Accuracy to Ballistics (Accuracy should be the name of the specialization against Flying units).
    For new promos, I sugest specializations against Flying (Accuracy) and Beast (Slayer) units, new levels of Sentry, the Hero promo (gives the unit on experience point per turn until it reachs 122 points - level 10 -, like FFH), a King promo (goes to capital when killed, but other units get damage because of low Morale), and some equipment promos: Improved Armor (+20% vs Ranged and +10% vs Melle/Mounted), Imp. Weapons (+15% vs Melee, +10% vs Mounted and +5% vs Ranged), Heavy Armor (+15% strength, +1 terrain cost), Extra Ammonition (+1 1st Stryke), War Horses (+10% withdrawal chance, +5% strength), Burning Projectiles (+10% collateral damage, +10% bombard power).
    The other skills should be made in accordance to the units, like the Stonemade promo for Trolls and the spells of the wizards.

    - New specialists (might be less then normal, not sure yet)
    - New events/quests
    Spoiler :

    - Possibly Ardamap, though I would like to have it work on random maps as well.

    So a lot of new stuff basically, but so far mostly xml changes. I'm open to suggestions, but I think that the first version will have to contain at least these things to be resemble Arda.

    Also, not xml changes I'd like (but they can wait if necessary)
    - (on random map) Make sure Shadow civ is always picked as one of the opponents if Player doesn't start as Shadow civ.
    - Heroes
    - equipment
     
  2. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    2,471
    I've simply cannibalized the lists that Elda King and others so kindly posted in this forum, to get this thing going again.
    About a lot of these things I would prefer to have a bit of discussion, so if anyone (this means you xmen51) wants to chime in please do so. To really discus specific things from the featurelist, please start a new thread (don't use the old ones, that will cause a lot of confusion) and possibly copy the items from the list that are relevant to the new thread. Discussion about the featurelist itself is also more then welcome

    The first thing I'm going to work on is the tech tree and then work from there (add buildings, units, then civs, unique stuff, etc)
     
  3. xmen510

    xmen510 Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,456
    Location:
    London Ontario, Canada
    A lot of good info there. I remember a bunch of it. I hope the following ideas and notes are of help. This is all that comes to mind at the moment.

    A thought on Religions:

    Religions should not "spread". They should automatically appear in the City controlled by that Civ and any others should disappear. If you build a city, your Religion appears automatically. No religion can be spread by missionary (take them out).

    Most people followed their own and the good never would have allowed "Shadow worship" in their cities and the same with Sauron with "Valar" beliefs.

    Also all religious buildings not associated with yours would be destroyed in taking a city. You must rebuild those. This way you don't have a "Shadow" worshiping Gondor and vice versa.

    Perhaps you could also eliminate or "lessen" the negative for a different Relion among the "Good" ones and those that are more neutral/likely to serve "Evil" would be lessened between them as well.

    Just an idea.

    Rhye's and Fall has an automatic worship spread and temple building with the Arabian Civ. you might be able to ask him how it was implemented. That would save a lot of effort in fidling around with that.

    For Resources:

    Pipeweed: Appears in the Warhammer Mod - Look it up :) (Again a time saver).

    Mithril: Required for certain units - Higher Gold and Hammer Value - Very rare

    Mearas: Better quality Horses or Special Units (or Required for Rohirrim/All Rohirrim Horse resources are considered Mearas)

    Quests:

    Search for the Entiwives (listed above): If you complete this, perhaps you could gain a number of Ent Units or be allowed to contruct a Sub-Wonder that allows you to build them - Both Wonders and the Units would be high cost however. Also, Ents no longer Hostile towards your Civ.

    World Wonders:

    Mithril Mine: Get 1 source of Mithril for free. +50% Build Speed for Dwarven Civs. +2 Culture, +25% Gold for City in Which it is located. +1 :) for all cities.

    Comment on Unique Units:

    Some are listed twice. Not sure if that was the intent or not. - I acutally like the Tower Guard one for Gondor myself.

    Terrain:

    Swamps - Again, see Rhye's and Fall.

    Unique Building:

    Rohirrim: (Instead of the Barracks) Mearas Stable - Replaces Stable: +1 Culture, +4XP for all Mounted Units

    Unique Power:

    How about possibly adding a thrid unique power. One made up for each Civ specifically for this game in relation to the LOTRs? I believe a few Mods have added third ones.

    You could have such things as "Great Miners", "Environmental Caretakers", "Great Industrialist", etc.

    Civics:

    We could also add a Military Civic List.

    We will need to change how and when the current ones apply in case you missed that.

    Leaders:

    Edain Empire: Beren & Hurin

    Haradrim Empire: 2nd Leader - Suladan (Named in the movies, not the books)

    Easterling Empire: 2nd Leader - Bor (Ulfang's Brother)

    Avari Empire: Kindi & Kinn-lai (Mentioned as 2 of the Tribal Names in War of The Jewels - Book 11 of teh History of Middle-Earth Series). Not name of people per say, but good for leader names.

    Art:

    On the topic of Art, I believe that woodelf has done quite a bit of modelling. It might help to look into his file list about that. It is a VERY long list.
     
  4. Elda King

    Elda King Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Belo Horizonte, MG, Brasil
    The civ list isn't the "official" one we were adopting, I think. Up until I left, we had 3 edain civs (matching the 3 houses of the 1st age), 3 noldor civs (for the houses of Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin), Gondor as well as Arnor, Númenor, Teleri was split in Falathrim and Sindar, did not have Avari but had Nandor. I personally find it best to have these multiple civs (for example, some noldor houses even fought each other).
    The earlier sketches included almost only 1st age civs (or civs that we could assume existed in the first age, as dunland), but then we agreed that for random maps we would better follow Civ logic and add later civs as well, instead of simply assuming they were the same ones present at the start (like, "Gondor is the same civ as the House of Hador"), but we still keep the 1st age ones. Anyway, it's up to you if you want to do 8 more civs...

    The first unit list is mine, while the second seems to be mine atualized. I myself like the second one the most. But I believe they weren't just new lines, but the only ones (except UUs); the regular units would be downright removed (thought some graphics could be used, of course).

    For the UUs, we hadn't anything at my time, except that we wouldn't have only one per civ. The shadow would indeed have plenty of them, with no similar in the core list (that would be the orcs for them), but many others would have more than one. Also, after it was implemented different graphics for the same units (when we didn't need a different unit for each race), I considered promos for units of different races.

    We had agreed on a hero system, and also on a king system; the kings would be more "support" units than "fighting" units (with possible exceptions). If you are going to use FFH2, they already have a hero system.

    We had in mind doing the mod primarily for being played on a random map, but allowing custom made ones like Beleriand and 3rd Age's Middle-Earth.

    If we have unique resources from FFH2, Mearas and Mithril would be fine, but they should not be essential for anything (except perhaps a wonder or such). Remember, Mithril was only found in Moria, and Mearas were only a single bloodline of horses.

    Some more of the features we had:

    Earendil Victory
    Spoiler :
    The Eärendil Victory is a peaceful victory condition that should be available at the late First Age, replacing the Spaceship victory. The main trouble would just make it available only for a limited amount of time - otherwise, all players would have a lot of time to finish it, making game boring after it. But we can simply obsolete all comps with the first techs of the Second Age. Oh, and of course the Shadow can't build it.
    History:
    Morgoth destroyed almost all the realms of Men and Elves, and there was little hope for them. The only true hope was send someone to ask the Valar for forgiveness and help, in the name of both Elves and Men. Earendil was a half elf, as his wife, and they - carrying one Silmaril recovered from Morgoth - reached the immortal land and did so. Then the Valar made war upon Morgoth, defeat him, and all ended OK (truly, then started the Second Age, but...).
    There are several ways it could work like (only scattered ideas):
    1) Build the many pieces of Vingilot, Earendil's great ship
    2) You need to recover one Silmaril to try it
    3) You need specific heroes to build it (for example, Earendil )
    4) You have x turns after the building of the first prereq (like Apollo Program) by someone to finish the victory prereqs or it becomes inavailable to all
    5) After you end the prereqs, there're still some turns before you win - so you must keep yourself alive until it (the Valar need time to prepare for the war, and attack)
    6) You need to build everything that lead to the voyage, including the marriages between elves and men, the help of Ulmo (one Vala) and such
    7) The hardest way, my first idea (when I was still thinking only about a Silmarillion scenario) was to actually make incredibly powerful Maiar units spawn in the map . I don't really consider this idea no longer

    Avatars of Sauron
    Spoiler :

    These are some ideas I have for having Sauron as a playable unit. I don't know if it can be done, or how, but I tried to make it as simple as possible.
    History Sauron was a powerful Maia, a angelic spirit, created before the world, and corrupted by the Dark Lord Morgoth. This way, he had several powers, between those the power to change his shape at will, and so he could trick his enemies or take the shape of terrible beasts to fight them. When his master Morgoth fell, he became a new Dark Lord, but he gradually lost his powers: he built one ring to control the Free Peoples, and had to put much of his strength into it, and lost his body in the fall of Númenor; when the Ring was taken from him, he became even weaker and incapable of assuming another corporeal form.
    Description The Shadow can build, at some time of the First Age, a powerful unit that represents Sauron in the game (one Avatar of Sauron), a unit with reasonable strength and powerful skills. When this Avatar is killed, after some turns a new one, less powerful, spawns at The Shadow's capital. When this new Avatar is killed, another weaker Avatar spawns after some turns, and so on. The Avatars can have different names, like Annatar, Necromancer, Great Eye, Dark Lord, Lord of the Rings, Sauron, Gorthaur, etc.
    Goals Have another unit, different, spawn some turns after one specific one is killed.
    Alternatives have one unit only buildable after one is killed.
    List of Avatars Each avatar has it's own skills, that should be like the spells of FFH.
    Gorthaur: strength of 5 or 6, can change his shape to a Werewolf (str. 9), a Vampire (str. 2, movement 4 or 5), or a Snake (can poison another unit, making it suffer damage over time).
    Annatar: str. 4, invisible to non-heroes (like spies, that should also be detected by heroes), can start The One Ring production in a city.
    Lord of The Rings: str. 5, is upgrade rather than spawned when Annatar is killed, gives bonuses to units in the same stack.
    Dark Lord: str. 4, can build the Temple of The Dark Lord wonder, and perhaps spread the Worship the Darkness religion (without disappearing, of course).
    Sauron: str. 4, if killed "loses the Ring", +50% vs hero units, perhaps a Fireball power.
    Necromancer: str. 3, sees 8 tiles away, if killed "loses the Ring" (just for the case of Sauron is killed before the Ring is finished).
    Necromancer (yes, another): str. 2, sees tiles away, if killed "loses the Ring" (just for the case of Sauron is killed before the Ring is finished).
    Eye of Sauron: str. 1, sees 6 tiles away, if killed "loses the Ring" (just for the case of Sauron is killed before the Ring is finished).

    The One Ring
    Spoiler :

    This will need some parts of the Quest for the Silmarils comp, and will be linked to the Avatars of Sauron.
    History Sauron disguised and sugested to the elven-smiths of Eregion the making made the Rings of Power, that would give them great power; but he made in secret One Ring that would control all that used the other rings. He put great part of it's power into it, so when he lost the ring he became weaker, and needed it to fully recover it's power; however, he coudn't be destroyed without destroying the Ring.
    Description The second Avatar of Sauron, Annatar, should be able to build the One Ring wonder, that gives several benefits to it's civ: perhaps it could make all the civs with Rings of Power allies (if we later make a upgrade of the mod to Warlords, it should be Vassal States) of The Shadow, and give free promos to units, or even extra gold/hammers/research. But when the current Avatar of Sauron is killed (only the Avatars after Sauron, the 5th Avatar), the Wonder is obsoleted and one "The One Ring" unit is randomly spawned at any land tile on the map, and must be "taken" by another units, like the Silmarils are; however, it isn't invisible. If taken to the capital of the civ, it gives the same benefits of the wonder while it's in the capital; but if taken to the city that has this wonder (let's say, by a Hobbit, an invisible unit ) that civ automatically wins the game (or The Shadow is destroyed). I don't know if The Shadow should be able to win the game by taking the game by returning it to the city where it was created, and perhaps instead of a wonder we should get a unit from the beggining (it would just make it harder to make it a prerequisite for Nazgûl and such), and perhaps the ring should only spawn when the next Avatar of Sauron spawns (difficult if the Great Eye, the last avatar, loses the ring - in the improbable case that all the earlier dye before the ring is finished).

    Quest for the Silmarils
    Spoiler :

    These are my ideas for the Silmarils, and the quests for finding them. I don't know if it can be done, or how, so I though about many alternatives to it.
    History: Fëanor, the greatest elven smith ever, created 3 bright gems using the light of the two Trees that lighted the world (they later gave origin to the Sun and the Moon); they had light of their own, and all desired them. They were called the Silmarils. But the Enemy destroyed the trees and stole the Silmarils, and now they must be recovered by the free peoples.
    Ideas The National Wonder "Quest for Silmaril - 1", when built for the first time, makes one Silmaril unit (barbarian unit) randomly appear at any land tile on the map. This unit is invisible to all that didn't build the wonder, and can't move by itself - but can be "taken" by any hero unit and moved to anywhere. The building only generates a Silmaril when built by the first time, but anyone can build it to be able to see this Silmaril - or to search for another Silmaril.
    When a player captures the Silmaril, it must bring it to his capital; while at a players capital, it gives several benefits to that civ: extra gold/hammers/research, more XP, more happiness/health, etc (I'm not quite sure).
    After one player have built the "Quest for Silmaril -1", it can build the "Quest for Silmaril -2" and start searching for another Silmaril, even if it didn't find the first. The same for the "Quest for Silmaril -3".
    Goals make a barbarian unit spawn when a building is built by the first time, but not when it's built again; have a unit that must be moved by another unit of a certain category (like treasures of Civ3, or perhaps after captured, the capturer gets a promo - like FFH "Orthus' Axe", that goes to who kills it - and must return to the capital?); give benefits while a certain unit is at the capital of the civ.
    Alternatives These are to be used if something is impossible or too hard to be done: instead of a building, a tech could spawn the unit when researched by the first time; the unit could be spawned at the start of the game, but would only become visible with the building/tech; any unit could capture it; the unit could trigger a golden age that last while it's at the capital.

    Concept: Shadow
    Spoiler :

    The Shadow is a very different civ: it's much more warlike, and is almost unvincible in a war - at least, against a single civ. Even the Númenoreans, after some centuries of development in a safe island with the help of valinor, would only be able to face it, not to defeat it. It shall have several units aside from it's basic orc/uruk warriors (units that replace the basic units; uruks should be the basic units of the third age), mostly fell beasts, and a large number of proper Heroes. This topic is for discussing those.
    For units, we should have Werewolves (great wargs/wolves possessed by evil spirits- probably lesser maiar, or perhaps disembodied spirits that refused to go to Mandos - not lycanthropes or manlike wolves), Vampires (evil units in the shape of giant bats), Dragons (giant lizards that breath fire, without wings), Cold Dragons (like the before, but attack with claws and bites instead of breathing fire), Flying Drakes (dragons that fly and breath fire), Balrogs (powerful demons of fire and shadow, truly powerful maiar), Trolls (stupid creatures made of stone, strong but the sun brokes the spell that gives them life and returns them into stone), Ologs (smart trolls that resist the sun) and Nazgûl (men that were enslaved by the Rings of Power).
    Most of these units should be national units, to avoid (too much) abuse: 6 Balrogs, 8 Nazgûl, 6 Dragons, 8 Cold Dragons, 4 Flying Drakes, 10 Werewolves, 3 Vampires (exploration units). Balrogs should upgrade into Dragons, just to avoid players to build more and more Balrogs after they are killed.
    About the heroes, we should for sure have Gothmog (the lord of the Balrogs), Glaurung (the father of the dragons), Ancalagon (the greatest dragon ever), Carcharoth (the greatest Werewolf ever), the Witch King (lord of the Nazgûl); perhaps we could also have Draugluin (father of the werevolves) and Smaug (greatest dragon of the third age). Most of them are from the first age, but remember that heroes (at least, if we make them like FFH's heroes) gain experience by turn, becoming powerful until very late (unless they get killed).
    We should also make some unique skills for them (like FFH's magic powers), to make them unique and to make them effective late game while don't overpowered early game. Trolls should have a promo that gives them a chance of turning into stone every turn, lets say 50% while out of your borders and 10% inside it; Werewolves shouldn't give enemies experience when killed; vampires should have poor strength, but high movement; all Dragons should be able to hypontize other units that they attack, escaping combat and making those units unable to move or attack for one round; Nazgûl should "poison" other units, making them lose life over time for some turns; the Balrogs and some powerful heroes should have the power "Doom", that makes any unit who kills them to dye also (even heroes), a powerful skill, capable of making Balrogs (units from the Age of the Stars) powerful in the late third age without have to give them too much strength.


    I had a picture of the full tech tree, but now I'd have to redo it from scratch (and from memory). Or is the file on the old preview you have?
     
  5. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

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    8 more civs should not be too problematic. Personally I would like to see Numenor Gondor and Arnor. I also think that we should include 1st age civs as well as civs of later ages (thus a long list of playable civs. If one wants to play with only 3th age civs they can select them with a custom game).


    Yeah, I figured, should have made it clear.


    Promos are indeed a good option, can also be used to limit some promos to specific races.

    Heroes would be nice, will have look into FFH to see what they do with them

    That was my take on things as well

    Don't know how unique resource work (I assume that there is only one source of them?) but that might be problematic as I would expect the Rohirrim to rely on them being available. Can't say much about it until I've played with FFH

    Some more of the features we had:

    That would be nice to have.

    Not sure how that would work... but it should be possible I think. Could use a bit of discussion to hammer things out. (For example I think Annatar should be invisible even to heroes until he has completed the ring)

    Well, the ring should be in one way or another... will have to think about it a bit.

    This is another thing I would like to see in, but I'm not sure how it would work out... Shouldn't they be national wonders and only the civs that have built them will be able to see the Silmaril (invisible otherwise). Don't know how feasible this will be...

    Looks good (and vaguely possible)

    There is a techtree in the preview, though it is a bit messy. Will try to post a screenshot of it tonight.
     
  6. Berenthor

    Berenthor King

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Netherlands
    I posted a proposal for a starting set of civs in the other thread but I'll post them here as well:
    • Elves
      • Noldor
      • Teleri
      • Sindar
    • Good Men
      • Rohirrim
      • Numenorean
      • Edain (beren, beorl, etc)
    • Evil Men
      • Haradrim
      • Easterling
      • Dunlending (men of saruman, evil men in the western part of middle earth)
    • Shadow
      • Mordor
      • Angmar
      • Angband??
      • Isengard??
    • Dwarves
      • Longbeard (Durin)
      • Firebeard??
      • Ironfists??
     
  7. Sifaus

    Sifaus Adramelech

    Joined:
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    nevermind :)
     
  8. Sifaus

    Sifaus Adramelech

    Joined:
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    My opinion is little longer but more accurate. I did shadow one major civ, becouse the orcs and trolls isn't changed while ages and only in late 3rd age, there is 2 changes, uruks and ologs.

    With minor civs;

    • Elves
      • Noldor
      • Teleri
      • Sindar
        • Minor
        • Avari
        • Silvan
    • Good Men
      • Rohirrim
      • Numenor
      • Arnor
      • Gondor
        • Minor
        • Dale
        • Southern Gondor
        • Men of Hildorien
        • Beornings
    • Evil Men
      • Haradrim
      • Easterling
        • Minor
        • Dunlending
        • Wainraiders
        • Men of Khand
        • Corsairs of Umbar
    • Shadow
      • Shadow
        • Minor
        • Angmar
        • Isengard
        • Orcs of Mountains (Can be Barbarians)
    • Dwarves
      • Longbeard (Durin)
        • Minor
        • Firebeard
        • Ironfists
     
  9. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

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    I think I would more good men (Arnor,Gondor, probably one house at least from the first age), only have Sauron and Melkor for Shadow (the rest for evil men) and two dwarven clans. Unsure about the Elves... I will think about this a bit and get myself a nice little opinion :D
     
  10. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

    Joined:
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    Screenshots from the techtree in the Preview:
    Spoiler :

    This is not what it looks like in game, but I pasted a couple of screenshots together to get a nicer picture.



    Religions:
    Spoiler :


    Other additions: Orthanc as wonder, a building (forgot which) and Rivendel as project (I think).


    As you can see, the stuff that can be salvaged from the preview doesn't amount to much. Even the techtree, the thing that's furthest along, isn't working well, is a bit short and needs more work. Best to start over from scratch completely.
     
  11. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

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    @Sifaus: what does minor mean? are they unplayable civs?
     
  12. Berenthor

    Berenthor King

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    Personnally I wouldn't make civs minor. I think they should just be playable. I tried to also have civs from every age in the list. This way we can make scenario's and maps for each age (beleriand, ME with Numenor, ME). My comments on the previous suggestions:
    • Elves
      • Noldor (Galadriel, Gil-Galad, etc)
      • Teleri (Cirdan)
      • Sindar (Legolas as hero, Thranduil as leader)
      • Avari --> warrant their own civ?
      • Silvan --> warrant their own civ?
    • Good Men
      • Rohirrim
      • Numenor
      • Arnor --> can we find a difference between gondor and arnor in terms of gameplay?
      • Gondor
      • Dale (Brand) --> merge with Beornings?
      • Southern Gondor --> not really a seperate civ (dol amroth etc, sounds to small)
      • Men of Hildorien --> what civ is this?
      • Beornings (Beorn) --> merge with Dale civ?
      • Edain --> is this a seperate civ or would that be one of the above? (Beornings maybe?)
    • Evil Men
      • Haradrim
      • Easterling
      • Dunlending
      • Wainraiders --> what civ was this again?
      • Men of Khand --> do they warrant their own civ?
      • Corsairs of Umbar --> do they warrant their own civ?
      • Black Numenoreans --> after the fall of numenor, numenoreans working for evil, limited "dark magic"
    • Shadow
      • Shadow
      • Angband (Melkor for first age battles)
      • Angmar (Witch King) --> fall of arnor etc.
      • Isengard
      • Dol Goldur (Necromancer/Sauron) --> maybe not really a seperate civ?
      • Orcs of Mountains (Can be Barbarians) --> I would make these barbarians, not really a civ and barbarians work very well in FFH2
    • Dwarves
      • Longbeard (Durin)
      • Firebeard
      • Ironfists --> maybe not and just have two dwarf civs
      • Blue Mountain dwarves --> were do these fall under?
     
  13. Sifaus

    Sifaus Adramelech

    Joined:
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    Yes :) 10 chars.
     
  14. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

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    I've started on the techtree. We should finalize the tree itself before continuing on to buildings and units (and making the xml file)


    My list of civs:
    • Elves
      • Noldor
      • Teleri
      • Sindar
      • I would probably drop the Silvan and Avari and rather include Vanyar in their stead
    • Good Men
      • Rohirrim
      • Numenor
      • Arnor/Gondor (Can we change the name of the civ depending on the leader? That would makes things easier
      • Northmen (Dale and Beornings)
      • House of Beor/Haleth/Hador (Probably use the same setup as Arnor/Gondor if possible)
    • Evil Men
      • Haradrim
      • Easterling
      • Dunlending
      • Men of Khand (maybe)
      • Black Numenoreans (includes Corsairs of Umbar)
      • Angmar (Witch King) --> fall of arnor etc.
    • Shadow
      • Shadow
      • Orcs of Mountains and other creatures not under direct control of the shadow should be barbarians (would be nice if they wouldn't attack the Shadow, or at least less then the other civs)
    • Dwarves
      • Longbeard (Durin)
      • Firebeard & Ironfists (they lived together didn't they?)

    Maybe we should at a 'neutral' category to the groups of men, because some of them (Dunlendings, Rohirrim) shouldn't be inherently good or evil in my opinion. I'm not really sure about grouping Andor/Gondor together or the three Houses of the first age... might be better to have them separately if that's feasible. There doesn't have to be a lot of difference between Andor and Gondor, mainly the leaders and one UU/UB, they could share the rest of their UU's
     
  15. Sifaus

    Sifaus Adramelech

    Joined:
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    I think there is no need to black numenoreans.

    My idea is;

    1- Build Numenorean Temple in Capital (Shire of Iluvatar)
    2- Then build Project, that only Numenoreans build, "Capturing the Sauron"
    3- Then build ritual, that only Numenoreans build, "Rite of Dark Vala".

    That gives your all units "Black Numenorean" Promotion, all forests, jungles turns to "Haunted Forest", Plains turns to swallows. The city set is only a little darker. Black Numenorean Promotion grants -2 Def, +2 Attack and i think this 3 steps gives Numenoreans a huge army bonus, but a huge happiness problem.

    And the Corsairs of Umbar can be a part of Harad.
     
  16. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

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    If you drop Black Numenoreans, then the Corsairs should be included with Harad yes, they are too small on their own. Not completely sure whether I like your setup for turning the Numenorians into Black Numenorians (I like the idea, but I think it should be implemented a bit differently, for example, Capturing Sauron should not be a project in my opinion not, but simply killing/enslaving a/the Sauron hero-unit.
     
  17. Berenthor

    Berenthor King

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    Location:
    Netherlands
    I like the idea about the numenoreans. I would also implement this differently, probably make it an event that happens when you "kill" such a hero unit and that gives the user the opinion of killing Sauron, capturing him or enslaving him (or something). Depending on the choice the player makes, the Numenoreans will receive turn into black Numenoreans. This is doable in the code as far as I can assess now.

    Personnally I would always include the Corsairs in Easerlings and not in Black Numenorean. Harad I think should have its own "fleet". Beor and Beornings is that not the same? I'm not sure actually :). Angmar is actually more part of "Shadow" than of evil men. It was mostly trolls, orcs, etc (also evil men though). I agree that Rohirrim and some of those should be made into a "neutral men". This matches well with the allignment of FFH2. Agree also on the firebeard and ironfists merged.

    Some that I miss: Isengard (I think could be a seperate civ although I agree it may be a bit wierd). Angband I would really include in the civ list because for first age things this could be really cool and it is sufficiently different from Mordor to warrant its own civ (Balrogs anyone :)). Dol Goldur I indeed don't know if this may become redundant although I think it is worth thinking about. About Arnor and Gondor, maybe you're right when you say split this. We could make them sufficiently different to warrant two civs (Gondor with elite knights the riders of Dol Amroth for example and Arnor the dunedain rangers as elite archers or rangers or something like that). For the three houses of the first age, if we can find enough differences (maybe also in allignment) we should seperate them. Vanyar as a civ might be pretty cool if we talk about battles before the first age. They are really the isolationist elves with more magic and more divine stuff. This could turn out to be a really unique and different civ to play (but balanced of course).

    I think the list is coming along nicely and there are not to big a differences in opinion on them.
     
  18. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

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    2,471
    I'm not sure about the relation between Beor and the Beornings, but they are quite far apart on the timeline (first vs third age), so no reason to exclude one on that account. I simply think that Dale en Beornings on themselves are a bit too small, but it makes sense to combine them.

    While I agree that Angmar has more of a 'Shadow' feel to it, I personally would reserve the 'Shadow' for Sauron and Melkor. On the other hand, it might be more practical to simply group them under shadow as they will share most with that group.

    I do on second thought agree that it makes more sense to have both Angband and Morder as Civs instead of one 'Shadow' civ, as both are completely different.

    Also, Isengard, I believe that originally Saruman was to be a leader of the Dunlendings, which is an option. About Dol Goldur, I think that should be a national wonder for the shadow civs.
     
  19. Berenthor

    Berenthor King

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    656
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I tried to put the previous discussing back into a list to see what we have so far. I also tried to add leaders and heroes to the different civs. This will make it easier to see what we are talking about. I agree about Dol Goldur, it should just be a wonder or something (maybe a fortress).
    • Elves
      • Noldor (leader: Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Fingolfin, etc)(hero: Elrond, Feanor, Finwe)
      • Teleri (leader: Cirdan, Celeborn, Elwe)(hero: ??)
      • Sindar (leader: Thranduil, Luthien, Thingol)(hero: Legolas)
      • Vanyar (leader: Ingwe)(hero: ??)
    • Good Men
      • Numenor (leader: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Tar-Elendil, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Palantir, Tar-Minastir)(hero: ??)
      • Arnor (leader: Elendil, Isildur, Aragorn II, Arvedui, Earendur, Argeleb I)(hero: Dunedain hero (captain of Aragorn after Helms deep, ??)
      • Gondor (leader: Elendil, Isildur, Aragorn II, Eldacar, Earendil)(hero: Boromir, ??)
      • Edain [House of Beor/Haleth/Hador] (leader: Beor, Haleth, Hador)(hero: ??)
    • Neutral Men
      • Rohirrim (leader: Theoden, Eorl, Helm Hammerhand)(hero: Eomer, ??)
      • Northmen [Dale and Beornings] (leader: Beorn, Bard)(hero: Brand)
      • Dunlending (leader: Saruman??)(hero: ??)
    • Evil Men
      • Haradrim (leader: ??)(hero: ??) --> only race with elephants (UU). Civ of horsemen and chariots
      • Easterling (leader: Bor, Ulfang, ??)(hero: ??)
      • Men of Khand --> maybe make them part of the easterlings, stem from those two houses (Bor and Ulfang)
    • Shadow
      • Shadow (leader: Sauron)(hero: Mouth of Sauron, Ringwraith(s))
      • Angband (leader: Melkor)(hero: Gothmog (first of the balrogs), Glaurung)
      • Angmar (leader: Witch King)(hero: ??)
    • Dwarves
      • Longbeard (leader: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain, Thráin I)(hero: Gimli, ??)
      • Firebeard & Ironfists (leader: ??)(hero: ??) --> no named dwarfs from the other dwarven houses
     
  20. Sengir

    Sengir Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    2,471
    I like your last list. Leaders for Northmen: Bard and Beorn (or Brand, son of Bard, as leader and Bard as hero). Heroes for the Edain won't be too hard I guess. Extra leader for Dunlendings would be Freca.

    Don't thing Ungolianth should be a hero for Melkor, she was really on her own and allied with Melkor, but didn't obey him. Better to have whatshisname the most powerful dragon as a hero (or Glaurung, the first dragon). Would have to sift through the other threads to find more names for the other civs.
     

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