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Features

Discussion in 'Civ4 - World 2009 Mod' started by DVS, Dec 19, 2008.

  1. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    UPDATED Dec 24th

    In this thread post your ideas for features to include that will require some SDK/Python modifications. A number have been tossed around and I'm sure we all have others floating around in our heads... so let's get them all in one place.

    This first post will be for modifications we have decided to make for sure.

    Several of these will tie in with each other, and with other mods we are including. The way I see it (and I'm often wrong), our gameplay modifications seem to be falling into two categories; war, and economics.

    To be included so far:

    Economics:

    War:


    Doesn't fall into either category:

    I'll try to keep an updated master list in this post, so let me know what I am forgetting.

    We also want to make sure that we don't start working on anything that is already covered by existing mods we can include. So if you see anything in here that you've seen elsewhere, speak up!
     
  2. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    UPDATED AGAIN

    Asymmetric warfare

    Thanks to Damburger, ianinsane, and NikNaks for their ideas which have resulted in this feature.

    Asymmetric (or terrorist) units will be invisible and operate like spies, using espionage points.

    Units:
    We have to figure out our limitations before we know whether we will be able to have the terrorist leader recruit units. I suspect we will be able to do this, but again it is something the AI would have to be able to do. If not, I suppose we will just have to have each of the units above buildable in cities that contain a terrorist headquarters building or something.


    Missions:

    As NikNaks suggested to me, we could have certain attacks take food away from the city. This would reflect the loss of lives, without removing hundreds of thousands or millions of people.

    I think we all agree that we can represent non-state sponsored terrorists by simply having the barbarian civ create them. It could also be done through events as ianinsane suggested, but for the sake of simplicity we may as well keep all asymmetric warfare under the same tent.
     
  3. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Idea: Insurgents

    Update: As explained by Joecoolyo below, most of this can be done with the Revolutions mod we are going to include. So we will leave this one alone until we see how the rev mod works in our game.
     
  4. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    This thread is looking grim so far, someone please post a happy idea or two. :lol:
     
  5. NikNaks

    NikNaks Chieftain

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    I've done my best to compile the various ideas for this into one plan.

    Local War

    For example, this might be war where US and China fight over Taiwan, NATO and Soviets for Cold War Berlin, or from history, alternative version of beginning of WW2.
    • Can be declared over only 1 city, which must have less than 60% culture of enemy civ or must be in riot
    • AI (original civs and all their allies/vassals) will attack/defend only this city (though may attack enemy units nearby)
    • After 5 turns will either come to Cease Fire or Total War (given choice to both sides; if pre-war relations were at least 'cautious', high chance that both AIs will choose peace, not depending who owns targeted city)
    • No nuclear weapons
    • Fairly insignificant negative diplomacy changes for aggressor
    Total War
    More or less standart war from CIV4, but:
    • Around 2-5 civs involved
    • Cease Fire can't be declared for the first 10 turns, because if civs wanted peace, they had a chance during Local War
    • AI tends not to use ICBM unless they lose more than 50% of original army or 50% of original territory
    • If any ICBM is used, switched to Nuclear War (player is warned)
    • Serious negative diplomacy changes for aggressor
    World War
    Larger scale version of total war
    • 7+ Civs involved
    • All UN Resolutions become null and void, UN Wonder ceases to work
    • Activates all offensive\defensive treaties
    • War cannot end till one side or the other has vassalized the enemy or destroyed their Civ
    • If any ICBM is used, switched to Nuclear War (player is warned)
    • Very serious negative diplomacy changes for aggressor
    Nuclear War
    (Using both the M.A.D. Nukes mod and the Nuclear Arsenal mod)
    • Every civ involved in Total War launch their ICBM on enemy cities, targeting cities with ICBMs at first
    • Some devastating and/or end-of-the-world (but not game) events occur
    Proxy War
    The armament supply among civs should become more important. I'm not sure how to make it work but it should be custom that Civs supply wartime enemies of their enemy with units. That way they can weaken their enemy without having to go to war themselves.
    I can think of several ways to do this:
    • If a Civ gives a unit to another Civ the usual way (moving into the others therritory and donate it) it should have effects on diplomatic relations...like +1 for every few modern units
    • If a Civ asks you to join its war against another there should be a third option to answer like "No, but I will [secretly] supply you with weapons." Then a new diplomacy screen pops on and you can choose which of your units to transfer to the other Civ. But you can't just put a warrior on the table to buy your way out of it. The other civ has to accept it like any other trade. If you put too little on the table the "you refused to help us during war time" malus will appear. If your offer is accepted then there is no effect on relations. To gain a positive effect you additionally have to donate units the way I described before.

    EDIT::lol: Cross-post with DVS there. I guess this doesn't count as happy.
     
  6. Joecoolyo

    Joecoolyo 99% Lightspeed

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    This is were we can use the Revolution mod I recommend before. Within the mod if cities you've captured don't like you (they usually don't), a couple things can happen, if your still at war with the civ you captured the cities from, "reinforcement" units will appear outside the city, if you've destroyed the civ, either it will pop out against with units outside the cities or barbarian units will appear outside of those cities. We can use this to simulate Taliban like groups without having to modify or code a bunch. Plus, when the civ spawns back, it receives a great general on the field and usually gets guerrilla and woodsman promotions. This makes them at least a formidable foe and makes it harder to put down.
     
  7. Damburger

    Damburger Chieftain

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    I would just like to point out that, from a realism point of view, 'suitcase nukes' do not exist. The closest thing is backpack nukes (only developed by the US) which are very large, heavy, and have small yields:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Atomic_Demolition_Munition

    Other than that, good ideas. If Civ isn't going to shy away from representing Stalin and Mao, then it shouldn't shy away from representing Bin Laden should it?
     
  8. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Ok, thanks for that info. For some reason I always thought it was true that Russians had suitcase nukes in the US during the cold war. :crazyeye:

    So maybe we should scrap the nuclear terrorist all together, and just keep the regular terrorists that damage buildings, remove population, and possibly add unhappiness.
     
  9. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    That's what I figure. I have done horrible, unspeakable things to the people of eastern Europe while playing as Hitler in civ mods, so representing present day bad guys can't be a big problem.
     
  10. sheep21

    sheep21 Chieftain

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    there is no such thing as a nuclear terroist at the moment so doubtful it should be included aye.
     
  11. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Indeed, I wasn't sure if that mod brought in reinforcement type units. So, it looks like we won't need to do this ourselves, that's great. We'll see how things work with the revolutions mod and we can modify it if we have to.

    Thanks a lot :D
     
  12. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    For example, with the revolutions mod, it would be nice if we could modify it so that the units are different depending on what country/region the rebellion is taking place in.
     
  13. Joecoolyo

    Joecoolyo 99% Lightspeed

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    Well actually (having experienced rebellions in my games) the units that appear as "rebels" are only the type of units in those cities. For example, if all you have is archers in those specific cities, then the only unit that will appear are archers.
     
  14. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Ok sweet, glad we have your input. So that is what we will have to modify.
     
  15. NikNaks

    NikNaks Chieftain

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    Awesome. I knew there was something like that in it.
     
  16. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    you did tell me so.
     
  17. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    I'm responding to something Mattygerst said in another thread because I didn't want to post my big off topic response in that thread:


    I get what you're saying, and we are. I think this has been discussed somewhere else, I'll dig around.

    As far as I know we haven't decided how we're going to handle who gets to produce what. We are certainly going to have country specific units, but how to handle them is wide open. Someone suggested having licenses that can be sold (but not brokered). So you'd have to buy the rights before you can build Russian (American, Chinese, whatever) military units. At the start of the game, countries should only be able to produce what they can actually produce themselves right now in reality.

    We should be able to do this with a minor modification to techs, so the AI should be able to do it. One problem I foresee however, is the AI wasting money on redundant licenses like they do in maxriga. So we should try to limit civs to one license per unit type.
     
  18. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Another Feature I would love to have that has been discussed here.

    ARMS TRADE

    The major producers could sell units to smaller, rich nations. If we have to, we can make it as simple as allowing units parked in the city with the building that allows this to be sold as you'd sell a tech.

    I think it's such an important part of how the world works, it certainly merits it's own section on the diplomacy screen.

    You'd be required to have a military, air force, or naval academy somewhere to be able to purchase related units (to train the crew).

    The only problem with this, is having the AI actually use it properly. It seems like something we should obviously have, because it's what happens in the world, but if the AI won't buy or sell on it's own, or if they use it in stupid ways, we'll have to make due without it.
     
  19. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Also talked about elsewhere I believe...


    Deficit Spending

    This and other modifications that we want to make to the GDP function should be figured out once and for all. Personally I think we should try to make the trade system better, and increase the use of lending.

    Right now, when you're trading you are limited to spending your surplus gold. But if a country has a large treasury, shouldn't they be allowed to increase their deficit by spending money beyond their surplus to buy resources? It is stupid that AI civs that are spending to the max on research/espionage won't go farther into the red to buy oil they need when they are under invasion.

    Hopefully we will be able to make this work, and we can get a little fancy with it. We can prevent small AI civs from being totally irresponsible by cutting them off when they start screwing themselves over. Even give civs a rating, lowering it if their economy begins to struggle, and that's when restrictions kick in. Human players could see the ratings on the "International Monetary Fund (IMF)" screen. IMF rating is also hurt by certain economic civics. Being in a trade org should probably give you a bump.

    We could also try to make the AI handle this better by only letting it increase the deficit to buy things it really needs. Extra oil only when they are at war, happiness resources only when their happiness rating is low, etc etc. Again varying degrees of restrictions based on their IMF rating.

    I also think it would be nice if we could increase the frequency of money lending. Poor nations should more often borrow money from rich ones and use it to hurry production. Interest rates/availability dependent on the attitudes of rich nations towards you of course. The US and EU should be making big loans to some of our micro states and weaker unions. Ideally.

    The amount of loans you have and have had would also tie in to the IMF screen.

    As always all of these changes are dependent on how the AI will react to them. If the limitations are there to prevent the AI from extreme stupid spending then we will have to forget about this.

    If anyone has seen a mod that modifies the GDP in any way, please share.


    Also, on a side note, I think we should remove all references to "gold" and replace them with "dollars"; including the icon. (as long as the USD remains the world's reserve currency... who knows, we may have to change it back!). Please don't anybody mention exchange rates etc until well after V1.0 comes out! :crazyeye:
     
  20. DVS

    DVS El Presidente

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    Improved Statistics


    I'm sure we'd all like something changed in regards to the statistics.. so let's decide what.

    Hopefully someone familiar with the programming end of things can enlighten me as to what is possible.

    Personally, if it won't slow down our game any, I would like to be able to view the full lists of each of the demographics (rather than just your info, best/worst/avg, and your ranking).

    Also I don't think it should take any espionage points to see everyone's details. It should require modern computers at best. Needing espionage to view GDP and military strength makes sense in 1492, but in the modern world all of that info is available on one website. :D

    I think there may be an existing improved statistics mod, I will look around.
     

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