February/March Gauntlet

Tone

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The settings for the next gauntlet are as follows:

Level: Monarch
Mapsize: Large
Victory Condition: Cultural 20K

Please submit your games by March 15th. Good luck to all competitors.
 

DWetzel

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My alley, this is right up it.

I may submit an OCC one, just for kicks.
 

Spoonwood

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OCC may best fit a 20k, but really even an OCC 20k should end up slow in comparison to what one may have done with such a game (at least almost always). There's at least three reasons: 1. You can't build an army so no Heroic Epic. The other small militaristic wonders, but those usually don't do all too much relatively at least. 2. Slower research so slower to the high medieval wonders, especially Shake's. 3. Worker add-ins and 20k site development go slower. That said... I do have a 1415 OCC 20K on the Tiny Chieftain table.
 

DWetzel

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Oh, it'll definitely be a slower time than could be accomplished by a more normal game. Not even close.

However, a few points in its favor:

1. One of my more enjoyable game types to play, for some reason, is to fire up a Huge Monarch 20k and play an OCC with max opponents. No rational reason for this, of course. This is the same thing, only slightly easier.

2. It'll take a lot less time to play than a game with all those superfluous cities. :)

3. It'll also take a fair bit less time to get through a number of starts. Less important for a 20k game than most types, of course, but it's always a bummer to see what looks like a pretty good starting spot devolve due to surrounding terrain. That won't be a problem for me!

4, and most important. I already have one of those on the table in question, occupying the #5 spot. So I have to defend myself!
 

DWetzel

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Okay, well, the OCC submission is in. :) 20,001 culture (whaddaya mean, the Intelligence Agency mattered?!), 1630 AD. Only one SGL, but it came in time to get me the Pyramids in 2030 BC, shortly after the Colossus completed, so I can't complain too much.

I don't remember if submitting more than once is kosher for these... either way, I probably won't have time for a real one. (Or will I, muahahahaha?)
 

del62

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You can submit as many as you like, on the standard warlord domination I submitted 4 as I kept improving.
 

Spoonwood

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I submitted a 1495 game with Sumeria. I played against all the scientific opponents save for Babylon. No cows, but I did have 5 grassland wheats after moving the settler. No ancient age SGLs, but I did fish on CB and Mysticism before going for the Republic slingshot. None of my contacts got me Monotheism, so Monotheism as my freebie. I couldn't trade for the ivory, so no SoZ. My cities built libraries, and markets to help to get to Shake's faster, then I didn't build univerisities, instead going for trebbies and knights to get that first leader. Didn't happen until later when I decided to build universities, but I think I made the right call in not building universities until later.
 

Tone

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I've just woken up to the fact that this is one of my #1 slots! I may have to make a defence of this. With 2 submissions already, 1395AD will soon be beaten. I think I'll go with a high number of opponants (maybe 2 slots free) with a few scientifics to help the tech pace. I've tended to keep them out as I've always wanted to keep those SGL opps to myself but maybe getting to key improvements earlier might be better.

@DWetzel: that was a nice OCC site. Two ivory and two wines gives you plenty to trade with as well as a clear shot at SoZ. If you are able maybe a build order would be of interest to others. (Sorry Spoonwood but I won't be able to take a look at your's until later tonight.)
 

DWetzel

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Tone, you are darn right about the ivory (which is what obviously attracted me to the site); the wines were a pleasant bonus. I also had a clear colony to one of the spices until the end of the game thanks to some well placed AI settlements sort of putting one in the middle of a few cities.

Other happy developments included getting a coal deposit appearing in my mountains in about 1250 AD (shortly after I'd traipsed across half of Egypt to road up their second coal, of course).

Research was Masonry-Math-Writing-CoL-Philo (slingshot-Republic) - Literature and I don't much remember after that. I did get Mono and Feudalism from the AI as free techs but I drew Chivalry.

Off the top of my head, I didn't take any turn logs, but reviewing CA2 gives the following:

warrior
curragh (and yes I should have reversed these first two)
warrior
Colossus (2150 BC)
Pyramids (2030 BC) SGL
Statue of Zeus (1450BC)
Temple (1325 BC)
<---- revolt in here with slingshot, 4 turn anarchy, after this only culture builds are listed, though that's pretty much all I built with the exception of a harbor somewhere around the age change:

Mausoleum 875 BC -- kicks off GA
Great Library 590 BC
Library 570 BC
Great Wall 350 BC
Cathedral 270 BC (partially bought/ACav-ed)
Hanging Gardens 30 BC
Colosseum 10 AD
Sistine Chapel 380 Ad
University 390 AD
Copernicus' Observatory 550 AD
JS Bach's Cathedral 790 AD
Shakespeare's Theater 970 AD
Magellan's Voyage 1240 AD
Universal Suffrage 1400 AD
Theory of Evolution 1445 AD
Hoover Dam 1495 AD
Intelligence Agency 1520 AD
 

Spoonwood

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Tone said:
With 2 submissions already, 1395AD will soon be beaten.

A faster submission probably has a 1st or 2nd tech SGL, which takes time and patience usually from playing several MapFinder starts to get. At least my Emperor Persia 1375 game last month did, and maybe that's what you had in mind as indicative. Moving on...

Not sure I agree with having extra non-scientific opponents. It would make it harder to grab territory, which might slow down the human player's medieval research. I guess trading for Alphabet earlier becomes more of a certainty and possibly more gpt. How much would it really pick up the creation of the cathedral, colosseum, and university? That said, I think having 7 or 8 scientific opponents makes sense to pick up building creation, including the cathedral, the university, and Shake's especially. I just don't think OTHER opponents will help much, though I could have spoken poorly here.

What do you guys think about tribe selection? Scientific seems a given for increased SGL probabilities, free techs, and the cheaper little library and little university. So...

Persia-CB/Pottery SGL can go right to Pyramids straight away, and if you don't have ivory immortals can help to fish for an early MGL. Fast workers can develop things faster, as well as plant and chop forests for some cultural buildings (which I did in my game).

Ottos-Much as Persia, except if you want to war later in the industrial era, then you'll pick the Ottos over Persia. Of course, for a faster finish, you want to get that leader earlier. So, if you feel comfortable fighting with immortals, you'll pick Persia over the Ottos here, if you don't feel comfortable with early warring here, you'll pick the Ottos over Persia.

Byzantines-You'll start on the coast for the coastal wonders. Very useful also if you play archipelago, and your curragh can upgrade to an artillery support unit for MGL fishing.

Greece/Korea-Commercial might help with faster medieval research, though I can't see it as all that great.

Russia-They can easily enough pop a free settler or city early, so you don't have to put one out, and can develop faster. But, then you'll have to play with huts. Since the AIs have extra starting units at Monarch (and you need at least 6 opponents) that probably shoots any chance of getting a CB SGL. You can't fish for Pottery also even without huts. You can probably get contacts easier though, which could work out as more important. Cossacks-blitz ability and auto-promotion can help fishing for a leader later.

Sumeria-Via city growth agricultural helps with fast research, and shield production. You can also have an shield or two at size 12 for the same amount of food. Perhaps more so than industrious or commercial at this level since we have 2 native content citizens. No Pottery fishing for an SGL.

Germany-Not as fast in research as probably anyone, but the easier promotion could work out huge. If you have ivory and playing as Germany, would you even want to bother putting barracks in your 20k city, since regular AC have 4 hitpoints and can promote fairly fast? Faster-to-elites implies early chances going for an MGL.

Babylon-They do get both cheap sets of buildings and the short anarchy. But, you either have to take out BOTH Sumeria and Russia to SGL-fish on Pottery for a quick and early SGL, or you have to accept that you'll get that SGL a few turns later on Mysticism. Taking out both Sumeria and Russia means you can only have 6 as opposed to 7 scientific opponents for free techs to hopefully draw Theology, Industrialization/Electricity, and Miniaturization/Nuclear Power as your free techs. Possibly not a big deal though.
 

Spoonwood

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My 20k site had 31 shields after I got all my wheats forested (5 grassland wheats, 4 hills, a mountain, city on BG, two other BGs, a forest or two... one had a BG underneath as I found out later, a plains square, and regular grasslands), 45 shields after Shake's, then I think 114 after the factory and coal plant, a few more after I got Replacable Parts, some more after the Nuclear Plant, and finally 171 from tiles+8 from civil engineers after the Manufacturing Plant.

I fought Russia in the middle ages with knights to get a leader. At some points I waited to capture cities when I might have done so earlier so my elites could get more kills. No luck. I ended the war with them as an OCC and gifted them up for their free techs and got Industrialization as my free tech. I didn't go to war with Germany right away, fearing they would soon get Nationalism from some trade. They didn't, and I should have fought their muskets with knights, but instead I waited until I had MT and upgraded my knights to cavalry. I actually researched Chivalry (SGL) myself I think before getting Free Artistry, so I wouldn't run out of builds, and then I researched Music Theory also, as KT would finish too soon. I decided to take out a bunch of AI cities at the end to prevent any cascade from the modern wonders, so I could get them all, but since the wars took time, I ended up just clicking next turn and letting pollution stay on the map at the end. The rundown:

Palace-3950 BC
Little temple-2550 BC
Oracle-1700 BC
Pyramids-1250 BC
Museum of Mausollos-825 BC (triggers GA since I had the Pyramids)
Great Library-610 BC
Little library-590 BC
Little cathedral-530 BC
Colosseum-490 BC
Hanging Gardens-310 BC
Sistine Chapel-90 AD
Little university-110 AD
Shake's-350 AD (overbuilt, but I didn't care as...)
Bach's-360 AD (SGL 1)
Leo's Workshop-370 AD (SGL 2... nothing else to SGL at this point, it seemed better to do this than to build something else and then SGL Smith's)
Cope's-460 AD
Knights Templar-530 AD
Newton's-620 AD
Smith's-760 AD (think I should have had it a turn sooner, as I botched things and built a cannon or something by mistake)
Universal Suffrage-770 AD (SGL 3)
TOE-850 AD
Heroic Epic-880 AD (overbuilt a bit, but it did make sense)
Military Academy-890 AD (MGL)
Wall Street-920 AD
Hoover's-990 AD
Battlefield Medicine-1000 AD (MGL)
Pentagon-1040 AD
Internet-1255 AD (no need for a research lab when you draw Miniaturizaiton as your free tech!)
United Nations-1295 AD
SETI-1330 AD
Apollo Program-1335 AD (MGL)
Cure for Cancer-1365 AD
Longevity-1395 AD
Manhattan Project-1420 AD
Strategic Missile Defense-1435 AD
 

DWetzel

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A faster submission probably has a 1st or 2nd tech SGL, which takes time and patience usually from playing several MapFinder starts to get. At least my Emperor Persia 1375 game last month did, and maybe that's what you had in mind as indicative. Moving on...

Not sure I agree with having extra non-scientific opponents. It would make it harder to grab territory, which might slow down the human player's medieval research. I guess trading for Alphabet earlier becomes more of a certainty and possibly more gpt. How much would it really pick up the creation of the cathedral, colosseum, and university? That said, I think having 7 or 8 scientific opponents makes sense to pick up building creation, including the cathedral, the university, and Shake's especially. I just don't think OTHER opponents will help much, though I could have spoken poorly here.

What do you guys think about tribe selection? Scientific seems a given for increased SGL probabilities, free techs, and the cheaper little library and little university. So...

Persia-CB/Pottery SGL can go right to Pyramids straight away, and if you don't have ivory immortals can help to fish for an early MGL. Fast workers can develop things faster, as well as plant and chop forests for some cultural buildings (which I did in my game).

Ottos-Much as Persia, except if you want to war later in the industrial era, then you'll pick the Ottos over Persia. Of course, for a faster finish, you want to get that leader earlier. So, if you feel comfortable fighting with immortals, you'll pick Persia over the Ottos here, if you don't feel comfortable with early warring here, you'll pick the Ottos over Persia.

Byzantines-You'll start on the coast for the coastal wonders. Very useful also if you play archipelago, and your curragh can upgrade to an artillery support unit for MGL fishing.

Greece/Korea-Commercial might help with faster medieval research, though I can't see it as all that great.

Russia-They can easily enough pop a free settler or city early, so you don't have to put one out, and can develop faster. But, then you'll have to play with huts. Since the AIs have extra starting units at Monarch (and you need at least 6 opponents) that probably shoots any chance of getting a CB SGL. You can't fish for Pottery also even without huts. You can probably get contacts easier though, which could work out as more important. Cossacks-blitz ability and auto-promotion can help fishing for a leader later.

Sumeria-Via city growth agricultural helps with fast research, and shield production. You can also have an shield or two at size 12 for the same amount of food. Perhaps more so than industrious or commercial at this level since we have 2 native content citizens. No Pottery fishing for an SGL.

Germany-Not as fast in research as probably anyone, but the easier promotion could work out huge. If you have ivory and playing as Germany, would you even want to bother putting barracks in your 20k city, since regular AC have 4 hitpoints and can promote fairly fast? Faster-to-elites implies early chances going for an MGL.

Babylon-They do get both cheap sets of buildings and the short anarchy. But, you either have to take out BOTH Sumeria and Russia to SGL-fish on Pottery for a quick and early SGL, or you have to accept that you'll get that SGL a few turns later on Mysticism. Taking out both Sumeria and Russia means you can only have 6 as opposed to 7 scientific opponents for free techs to hopefully draw Theology, Industrialization/Electricity, and Miniaturization/Nuclear Power as your free techs. Possibly not a big deal though.

Pretty good summary.

I'm personally fond of the Byzantines. The coastal thing isn't that big a deal, with the right map anyone can be coastal. However, you do get a commerce bonus from the coastal city, which is a small but useful boost. Also, having move-3 scouts in the early game is a very useful thing for making contacts--even more so on Large maps with few opponents.

The Bab lack of anarchy is very nice; lack of scouting = not so nice. Having the cheap temple and library doesn't seem like it's that useful, and by the time you're into cathedrals and universities, hopefully you're in a position to get those within a turn or two anyway.

Germany = meh. Yeah, the extra promotion is nice. If this were PTW and you could rush wonders with MGLs, it would be very nice. Without it... well, you really only have to get lucky once for this type of game.

Russia = scouting is good. Starting techs = meh. On Monarch, you have a decent enough chance to pop a settler early whether you're expansionist or not (at least, that's been my experience in these OCC games, lol). On the right map, you can get through most of the early tech sooner, I suppose, but I don't think that's critical. As long as you have "enough" tech to be building useful culture, you're in good enough shape.

Sumeria = the agri bonus is of course always nice. Effectively, in the very long run, that's equivalent to an extra shield (since you can always use one more hill or one more forest square); in the short run, you can get going with the town growth faster.

Persia and Ottos--of the two I would prefer Persia, mainly because I'd prefer the Immortals early enough to dominate opponents (and possibly trigger a GA, IF I want one, not that that should otherwise be a problem).

Greece and Korea = yeah, that's not a particularly useful second trait. Of the two, give me Korea, just so I don't accidentally get a premature GA from a Hoplite.

One very important factor you did not mention was the golden age triggers. Assuming you want the Colossus as a cheap early wonder, then the Great Library (essential) will trigger a GA for any of Russia, Byzantines, Korea, or Greece. Really, the best second trait trigger-wise is probably agricultural or industrious (assuming you can bring yourself to skip the Pyramids, but really at 400 for 4 culture, I am of the opinion that you're better off going for other wonders and only getting this via a SGL-rush), since the Hanging Gardens properly timed is a pretty nice GA trigger. If you're without ivory for SoZ, then Germany is an interesting but probably poor choice, since you need a militaristic wonder (Sun Tzu or Leo's) which would be pretty bland as a build.
 

Spoonwood

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The Museum of Mausollos comes as a cheaper trigger for every scientific tribes along with the Colossus/Pyramids/Oracle, whatever matches your other traits (Babylon-Oracle, Korea, Russia, Byzantines, Greece-Colossus, Persia, Ottos, Sumeria-Pyramids), EXCEPT for Germany. It also helps with happiness early on, as you probably can't get luxuries hooked up that early and keep shield level high, and thus the MoM helps with research speed. Then again, the Great Library has 6 cpt for 400 shields, as opposed to 2 cpt for 200 shields, but I think the faster research and earlier GA (assumed as hand-built) of the Museum helps make that up.

If you don't have a coastal start or ivory, basically after the Oracle you only have the Pyramids to build and then maybe nothing before the slingshot. In my Sumeria game, for example, the AIs usefully got me Polytheism (I think the Ottos) after/around when I finished the Pyramids which I used as a pre-build on the Museum of Mausollos. Or I think you've kind of delayed getting the slingshot a little too much.
 

Spoonwood

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A somewhat similar gauntlet. I think my inital build order went enkidu-settler-worker-temple, though maybe a second enkidu.

Babylon may work better on average than I thought before, as even though Mysticism fishing may get you a later SGL than Pottery or CB, you can have 8 scientific opponents. I wonder if The Wheel would work to SGL fish at this level also. I guess if you go with more tribes than just scientific opponents, you probably want to consider Portugal, the Hittites, Carthage, and France so that they might contact you faster and so you have more tribes with Alphabet and Masonry around. I've changed my mind, I think it can work. But, I think you'll want a 70% pangea, possibly a 60% one if you can get the contacts fast enough.
 

del62

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Right I have started one of these with the byzantines

Here is the start position

Spoiler :


Not perfect but has potential, a river would of made a better start with the other factors, but I am giving it a go,

To start with tech wise I have gone writing, (got cb through trade), mystacism, (got masonry through trade), col, philosophy, (sling shot republic), litereratue and map making, currently on monarchy, I got poly through trade as I had nearly finished pyramids before literature and one of the AI built it, which meant I got GLib almost straight after lit

Build order so far

Warrior
Curragh
Settler
Colossus
Temple
A curragh
Oracle
Great Libary
Mausoleum of M

I have left in currently researching monarchy and working on Great Lighthouse on a 39 shield golden age representing 27 out of it, but a forest or 2 might increase this

The other civs are Greece, Korea, Japan (who declared on me), Eygypt, Rome and Germany many of whom are building TOA

I am hoping none get monarchy and the HG falls in cascade

After monarchy I just need construction and currency to project me into middle ages

I think my biggest mistake was not disbanding warriors on first entering rebublic to reduce support costs

It is now 490BC (I cant give any more dates as that would mean opening file before turnset)

I have horses on my Island and I have an Island I will use for Iron close by which will allow me to build some units to mount an invasion of japan in the middle ages hopefully for a leader

I have two luxuries on my Island but not Ivory sadly
 

Spoonwood

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del62 said:
I have left in currently researching monarchy and working on Great Lighthouse on a 39 shield golden age representing 27 out of it, but a forest or 2 might increase this

At size 12, that's actually 26 shields due to having 13 citizens working when you include the center square... given that all spots have at least one shield without the GA.
 

del62

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At size 12, that's actually 26 shields due to having 13 citizens working when you include the center square... given that all spots have at least one shield without the GA.

Your correct of course,

I have moved things on to 950AD, I finally got an SGL on metallurgy allowing a rush of JS Bachs, and am doing 97cpt with magellans to be finished soon, after that it will be factory, coal plant, smiths, universal suffrage, toe, wall street, hoover then maybe military academy of battlefield medicine, (I did get one MGL but am now at peace with japan after ww got to high for me to run full research in industrial age), I obviously wont beat your date but hopefully i should beat 1630AD
 

del62

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SGLs are like buses, none in the ancient age or early middle ages, but two com along in the industrial age when I have factory and coal plant, one I used on universal suffrage, but am unsure on the other should I wait for modern age or use it on either scientific method or hoovers, I have a good pre-build of Military Accademy for scientific method and hoovers is only 2 cpt whereas a modern age is 3 or 4
 

Spoonwood

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Finish the military academy and then SGL rush Hoover's. Sell the coal plant. It's earlier culture.
 
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