Feds vs Farmer

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, May 20, 2022.

?

Who are you siding with here?

  1. Feds

    8 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. Farmer

    6 vote(s)
    42.9%
  1. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    feds have been doing things i find unsavory in the news pretty often lately, and this just adds to the pile.

    i side with the farmer, obviously. the fed is not your parents, people know what they are signing up for. the only way the farmer should be liable in this case is if he misrepresented the product/committed fraud. doesn't seem the feds are even claiming that. screw the feds then.
     
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  3. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    So the case involves:
    • Religious freedom
    • Selling food products to the public
    • Federal regulations
    • Defying court orders/paying fines
    Religious defense: No
    Public demand for products: Yes
    Regulations: don't know which regulations he is not following
    Court orders: bad idea to ignore them, so no

    If the issues are about processing food and not about growing it, then I am more in favor of the feds. The link did not talk about what he is refusing to do. That is important. If he is using religious freedom as his defense, I'd go full against him since he is selling to the public.
     
  4. amadeus

    amadeus Techbrophobe

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    That’s the go-to for food safety?
     
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  5. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Nobody got hurt, he wasn't making false claims, so I'll go w the farmer.
     
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  6. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    It gives you a pretty good idea:

    Slaughtering and processing the meat he raises on his own farm and selling it fresh-frozen to members of his private food buying club, who’ve all signed contracts stating they understand the meat is not processed in USDA-inspected plants, or treated with USDA-required chemical preservatives… because that’s how they want it, and the very reason they are willing to go to such great lengths to get it.

    “The USDA processing plants require the meat to be treated with a chemical cocktail of citric acid, lactic acid and peracetic acid,”

    Additionally, USDA-approved processing plants aren’t allowed to sell certain organ meats and glands for human consumption.
    I do not know enough about the preservatives, but it is environmentally irresponsible to throw away offal. Almost all the meat I eat is offal.

     
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  7. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    LMAO, there is nothing "natural" about agriculture, period.

    This seems quite ridiculous, but the source is biased.

    Here is the other side of the story:

    Civil Lawsuit Filed to Enjoin Local Farm’s Continuing Misbranding of Meat/Poultry Products and Evasion of Food Safety Laws
    PHILADELPHIA – United States Attorney William M. McSwain announced today that his office has filed a civil lawsuit to enjoin Miller’s Organic Farm of Bird-in-Hand, Pennsylvania, and its owner, Amos Miller, from continuing to violate federal food safety laws. The violations include Miller’s selling non-federally-inspected, misbranded meat and poultry products to consumers located throughout the United States.

    The United States brings the action on behalf of the Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. FSIS is responsible for ensuring that commercially sold meat, poultry, and egg products are safe, wholesome, and correctly labeled and packaged. A principal way that FSIS fulfills its mission is by inspecting meat and poultry products before they reach consumers.

    The suit is part of the United States’ continuing efforts to bring Miller’s into compliance with federal food safety laws. In late 2015, for example, the Food and Drug Administration, which regulates milk: (1) isolated and identified Listeria monocytogenes (L. mono) bacteria in samples of Miller’s raw milk; (2) through whole genome sequencing, found the bacteria to be genetically similar to L. mono in two individuals who had developed listeriosis (with one dying) after consuming raw milk; and (3) named Miller’s as the “likely source” of those infections.

    In follow-up, FSIS sought to assess whether L. mono might be contaminating Miller’s meat and poultry products. But Mr. Miller refused to grant FSIS entry to the farm’s meat-and-poultry-related facilities, even after the agency served him with a subpoena. He erroneously contended that, as a self-organized private membership association, Miller’s is beyond the reach of federal food safety regulation.

    The United States then sued Miller’s in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, to enforce the subpoena and USDA’s access rights under the Federal Meat Inspection Act (FMIA) and the Poultry Products Inspection Act (PPIA). See United States v. Miller’s Organic Farm and Amos Miller, EDPA No. 16-cv-2731. After the court enforced the subpoena, FSIS cited Miller’s with FMIA and PPIA misbranding and other violations, which have since continued. This is believed to be the first-ever suit of its kind where FSIS is seeking an injunction against a so-called “private membership association” farm business to enforce food safety laws.

    “With today’s lawsuit, food establishments in this District are on further notice that my Office will not ignore efforts to evade federal food safety laws and to hinder agencies like FSIS from carrying out their public safety missions,” said U.S. Attorney McSwain. “We will not allow commercial sellers to ignore the rule of law, make up their own sets of rules, and attempt to hide behind a private-membership-association structure in an effort to thwart federal laws. Congress enacted food safety laws to ensure that the nation’s food supply is safe, wholesome, and properly labeled and packaged. It’s our job to enforce those democratically enacted laws, which we will do in this case.”

    “FSIS investigators work hard every day to protect consumers,” said Carmen Rottenberg, FSIS Administrator. “We take our job to protect public health very seriously, with swift action to ensure that American families have safe food to eat. Flagrant failure to meet the regulations will not be tolerated.”

    Assistant United States Attorney Gerald Sullivan is litigating this case on behalf of the United States.


    So, the guy sold tainted milk that killed a person:
    https://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/raw-milk-03-16/index.html#:~:text=The likely source of their,bacteria from the two ill

    I'm not really sure that I buy the argument that, just because the people involved consented, they should be able to buy stuff that's going to sicken and kill them. Especially if it's parents consenting to buy the products and then feeding them to their children. I'm leaning towards the Feds on this one.
     
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  8. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Yeah, but what are the processing steps he is skipping?

    Hey do you want to buy one of my cars? They don't have brakes or headlights, but you know that before you buy.
    Sign in restaurant bathroom: Our staff do not wash their hands after pissing and shifting because it is against our Christian religious principles, but, as you know, the meals are very tasty even for their high price.

    We already have numerous food bacteria incidents with lettuce and the like; why do we want more? If you don't like the rules, grow your own and give it to your friends; don't make it a business. I hope their liability insurance is up to date. God is unlikely to testify on their behalf when folks get sick.
     
  9. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    Listeria is one of the main things that pasteurization protects against, and the reason that pregnant women should not eat soft cheese as it is not usually fatal to healthy people, but is really bad of the developing foetus. I would say it is a hazard that you accept if you seek out unpasteurized milk.
     
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  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    note that as-is sales are enforceable, even if a car you just purchased breaks down on the lot as you try to leave. this might not be the best counter-point as a result. these contracts remain enforced even if the purchaser did *not* know about all of the car's issues, that prevent it from serving the primary function of a car (moving, at all).

    the fetish fuel example you give is disgusting, so i would expect it to fail. but it's not my place to kink shame people.

    guy didn't like it, did exactly that. grew his own, sold it to friends. so many people wanted it that he now has 4000 friends, all operating privately still, and unlike car example above the customers got exactly what they anticipated.

    4000 friends sounds like a lot but there are people on facebook with more. this is not the government's business, unless the guy defrauded the customers.
     
  11. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

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    Stopped reading as soon as the author claimed that the Amish engage in sustainable agriculture and animal husbandry. The Amish literally rape the Earth everywhere they go.
     
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  12. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I wonder the overlap between people who take Miller's side on this and people who are "pro-life"
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
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  13. Synobun

    Synobun Deity

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    Libertarians are welcome to hock their wares in Rapture instead.
     
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  14. amadeus

    amadeus Techbrophobe

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    At some point, I wonder how far can the natural = good thing should be taken.

    Currency is not natural.
    Automobiles are not natural.
    Literacy is not natural.
    Clothing is not natural.
    Even homeopathy, the last refuge of the nature-freaks, is not natural.

    I don’t want to be a naked moron who gets eaten by a zebra. Nature? Hard pass!
     
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  15. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    there'll be no allegations, just friendly crustaceans under the seaaaaa
     
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  16. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    You are lost in the weeds. Giving potentially unsafe products away to friends is not the same as selling to the public.
     
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  17. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago Moderator

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    A "friend" on facebook isn't a real friend.
    The farmer is selling a product even if it is through a club. 4000 customers is plenty enough that it should be treated as a real business.
     
  18. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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  19. amadeus

    amadeus Techbrophobe

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    The National Association of Convenience Stores says the average store serves 1,100 customers daily.

    Is this farmer a business, or are gas stations just unfriendly? :mischief:
     
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  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    it shouldn't at all. the problem here is forcing the choice onto other people at a federal level arbitrarily

    i'm not the one in the weeds here.

    and of course it's the same. note that cement mixers, rotary saws, power drills, ladders, microwaves, lighters, and cars are all examples of "potentially unsafe products". as are knives used in the kitchen. injuries from the first two on this list can be particularly brutal even, and nobody from the federal government comes to your house to hold your hand and make sure you're using any of these properly if you have them.

    i could make such a list 2x, 3x or however long you like before hitting limits of what a post allows. risk is everywhere in life.

    the people purchasing these products explicitly signed up for it, with full disclosure of relevant risks. taking calculated risk to self w/o risking others is a basic individual freedom. yes, even if objectively it's unwise/stupid. people are free to make bad choices.
     

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