Feedback: Civics
- Thread starter Xyth
- Start date
Discussion from the old thread shifted to this new one:
I don't think it needs a commercial or production component to be honest. A focus on science and great people creates a more unique role for this civic, one that may not always be appealing to all playstyles or civs but perfect for others. Democracy is available fairly early (Politics) so unlimited scientists is not pretty strong - if you're willing to sacrifice some production or commerce.
I think the lack of production/commerce in the civic is enough to keep it balanced. If not, the +25% war weariness is easy to add back in. Lets see how it goes in 0.9.4.
Err, yes, was a typo. Though it's one candidate for adding more unhealthiness to the game.
I think it will be okay on most maps but it could be problematic on Archipelagos. I like the theme of the bonuses though so if it needs weakening I'll do so via a penalty. It used to have -25% culture in the early days (lack of united cultural identity). Maybe I should bring that back?
I can't code 1 happiness for every 2 units unfortunately or I would. Authoritarianism is strong but now that the rest of the Legal tree has been strengthened (but not Codification, see below) it doesn't hurt to give it a minor bonus like this one.
Yeah I'm not happy with this civic. The happiness bit is fine but it needs something much stronger for the second bonus to compete with Authoritarianism.
Redistribution is actually pretty strong now that camps can be built in any forest or jungle. The penalty was needed to keep it reasonable compared to the other economy civics.
Hmm, I like Bureaucracy as a name. Suitably medieval, suitably broad in definition, and a much better fit in the economic category than it ever was in Legal. I prefer no foreign corporations too, the alternative can be too much of a penalty. I'll make it available at Printing (and move Printing's free Great Artist to Free Artistry).
Mercantlism was clunky, half it's bonuses/penalties just served to cancel each other out. It was an interesting concept but I don't think BTS did it well enough, and the HR implementation wasn't any better. The Monarchy capital bonus is commerce and the Bureaucracy one will be wealth so they're not too similar. Creates a nice synergy though.
I'll can put it back to 50%. The other option is to swap this (either at 25% or 50%) with the +1 trade route that Confederation now has. The question is, which of these is the stronger bonus? The stronger one should stay with Free Market and the weaker one should go to Confederation. The free trade route is strong only if you can make good use of it - which many cities can't - whilst the commerce bonus is weaker to begin with but scales very well.
Yeah I'm not happy with the changes to the Military civics. I've reverted Conscription and Vassalage back to how they are in 0.9.3 and I've made some different shuffles for Warrior Code and Standing Army. The unlimited spies moved to Aristocracy.
It's actually a bit stronger than before, albeit more narrow in focus. I will lower it's upkeep though.
I'm not yet convinced that this is the best solution for this civic, doesn't feel right to have a civilization that is tolerant and embracing of all religions trying to deliberately spread them. Plus it requires additional coding so I'd prefer to replace it if possible.
I don't think it needs a commercial or production component to be honest. A focus on science and great people creates a more unique role for this civic, one that may not always be appealing to all playstyles or civs but perfect for others. Democracy is available fairly early (Politics) so unlimited scientists is not pretty strong - if you're willing to sacrifice some production or commerce.
I think the lack of production/commerce in the civic is enough to keep it balanced. If not, the +25% war weariness is easy to add back in. Lets see how it goes in 0.9.4.
Err, yes, was a typo. Though it's one candidate for adding more unhealthiness to the game.
I think it will be okay on most maps but it could be problematic on Archipelagos. I like the theme of the bonuses though so if it needs weakening I'll do so via a penalty. It used to have -25% culture in the early days (lack of united cultural identity). Maybe I should bring that back?
I can't code 1 happiness for every 2 units unfortunately or I would. Authoritarianism is strong but now that the rest of the Legal tree has been strengthened (but not Codification, see below) it doesn't hurt to give it a minor bonus like this one.
Yeah I'm not happy with this civic. The happiness bit is fine but it needs something much stronger for the second bonus to compete with Authoritarianism.
Redistribution is actually pretty strong now that camps can be built in any forest or jungle. The penalty was needed to keep it reasonable compared to the other economy civics.
Hmm, I like Bureaucracy as a name. Suitably medieval, suitably broad in definition, and a much better fit in the economic category than it ever was in Legal. I prefer no foreign corporations too, the alternative can be too much of a penalty. I'll make it available at Printing (and move Printing's free Great Artist to Free Artistry).
Mercantlism was clunky, half it's bonuses/penalties just served to cancel each other out. It was an interesting concept but I don't think BTS did it well enough, and the HR implementation wasn't any better. The Monarchy capital bonus is commerce and the Bureaucracy one will be wealth so they're not too similar. Creates a nice synergy though.
I'll can put it back to 50%. The other option is to swap this (either at 25% or 50%) with the +1 trade route that Confederation now has. The question is, which of these is the stronger bonus? The stronger one should stay with Free Market and the weaker one should go to Confederation. The free trade route is strong only if you can make good use of it - which many cities can't - whilst the commerce bonus is weaker to begin with but scales very well.
Yeah I'm not happy with the changes to the Military civics. I've reverted Conscription and Vassalage back to how they are in 0.9.3 and I've made some different shuffles for Warrior Code and Standing Army. The unlimited spies moved to Aristocracy.
It's actually a bit stronger than before, albeit more narrow in focus. I will lower it's upkeep though.
I'm not yet convinced that this is the best solution for this civic, doesn't feel right to have a civilization that is tolerant and embracing of all religions trying to deliberately spread them. Plus it requires additional coding so I'd prefer to replace it if possible.
If you want Democracy to be a niche civic - "one that may not always be appealing to all playstyles or civs but [is] perfect for others" - then you can leave it be. All I'm saying is that Democracy is weaker than the other choices in that column: you will always be sacrificing some production or commerce by adopting Democracy. Once you build enough Libraries and Observatories, or pick up unlimited specialists from other civics (Professionalism, Industrialism), Democracy loses much of its attraction. Starting in the Renaissance, only players geared towards Culture Victory will have much to gain from Democracy. If you interpret Democracy as the ancient Greeks did - as direct democracy - then this makes a certain amount of sense; modern representative democracies can be recast as variations on Confederation or Aristocracy. If not, you have a problem: Democracy is not viable in the Industrial and Modern eras.
Yup. So long as you add more unhealthiness to say, Industrialism, first. I'm not sure it makes sense to give Slavery (and, frankly, the Holy Office) a health penalty equal to that of Industrialism.
I would strongly advise against a culture penalty. In Civ IV, culture is calculated on a per-city basis; and although Confederations may lack a united cultural identity, they can certainly accommodate flourishing regional cultures. In fact, most societies that adopted confederation but stopped short of outright nationhood were motivated by precisely those concerns: the loss of distinct local subcultures. The sovereign nations of Scotland and Wales, under the broader United Kingdom, are case in point. Bottom line: That -25% culture must go!
Well, our options are rather limited. What do you think of +1 science/specialist? It mirrors the Monarchy-Representation dynamic from BtS, which works rather well, I think. Codification and Rationalism could combine to give +3 science/specialist; but that's no worse than the current setup.
You decided against removing Windmills, then? I might reconsider: mines now come with -1 health, so the temptation to switch to windmills is greater than ever. They don't need a boost.
It's exactly as you say: "the free trade route is strong only if you can make good use of it [...] whilst the commerce bonus is weaker to begin with but scales very well." It seems to me that the commerce bonus is stronger (or at least, grows stronger over time), so I would keep it at Free Market.
With respect, I think this is a step backwards.
1. -50% upgrade costs makes much more sense for Standing Army than Conscription: professionally-trained soldiers would be better prepared for the transition to new weapons (bow to longbow, musket to rifle) than poor, illiterate civilians pressed into service.
2. At the same time, +100% XP in cultural borders is a better fit for Conscription than Vassalage: drafted soldiers defending their homeland will quickly learn their trade; whereas the whole point of taking vassals and compelling their participation in war is to engage in foreign conquest.
3. Also, while unlimited spies are appropriate for Aristocracy and Vassalage alike; +2 happy Castles are better suited Vassalage than Warrior Code.
Here's my third draft of the Military civics, plus Aristocracy:
--- GOVERNMENT ---
Aristocracy
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from number of cities
• +25% espionage
--- MILITARY ---
Conscription
Requires Employment
Low Upkeep
• Can draft X units per turn
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
Vassalage
Requires Fealty
Medium Upkeep
• Lower military unit support costs
• unlimited Spy specialists
• +2 happiness from Castle
Warrior Code
Requires Steel Working
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 experience
• +25% culture in all cities
• +2 happiness from Barracks
Standing Army
Requires Military Conduct
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General appearance
• +25% military unit production
• -50% unit upgrade costs
So what if Standing Army is the strongest civic in this column? Standing armies are better than conscripts, mercenaries, peasant-militias, and chivalrous-aristocrats in the majority of cases. (If there's one civic that all civilizations today adhere to, it's Standing Army.) Even so, every other Military civic retains a unique mechanic that can be useful all the way to the modern era: no war wariness, drafting, lower support costs, and bonus XP.
When I said "Missionaries are always successful," I meant to say "Missionaries are always successful in your cities," on the theory that a tolerant civilization would welcome the followers of all religions. (That's probably even harder to code, unfortunately.) How about we remove the No State Religion requirement instead? As I've mentioned before, the Free Religion civic already works that way in practice because of a bug. In any case, it's Free Religion not Secularism, so I see no reason to keep that particular penalty. Some of the most tolerant leaders (Akbar of India, for example, whose favorite civic is Free Religion) were confirmed theists themselves.
Simon_Jester
Prince
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 495
Not sure I agree. Professional military cadres may also be relatively conservative about adopting new weapons technology (witness the reception tanks got in the 1910s and 1920s). Whereas conscript armies will take whatever you hand to them at the moment of drafting, which is mostly controlled by what your factories were turning out that year, not by tradition or by a standing military-industrial complex's preconceived ideas of how a weapon ought to look.
Moreover, reduced upkeep cost fits well with the use of Conscription as a "peacetime civic" for civilizations not planning to engage in intensive warfare- it promotes a consistent gaming strategy. Because with Conscription you can form a small standing army, upgrade it through the ages cheaply, and then rapidly draft forces to repel a surprise attack.
We should beware of granting "standing army" automatic superiority over other types of civic; for balance purposes the fact that a given bonus could logically apply to Standing Army doesn't mean that every bonus which could apply should.
Not necessarily- it's often simply a means to secure their loyalty to you because otherwise they'd be independent warlords governing a chunk of "your" state, and thus effectively making it no longer part of your state. On the scale of civilizations, most feudal warfare was 'internal' to a given civilization, with a handful of exceptions like the Hundred Years' War and Crusades in Europe.
Debateable. All the WWII militaries relied heavily on conscription, and WWII was by far the most intense conflict of the modern era. A lot of nations outside the West still practice conscription today- Israel, Russia and much of Asia. All-volunteer militaries are really only seen in the "Western" countries, where extremely advanced and expensive technology, and the end of the age of imperialism in Europe, have reduced the demand for military manpower. That, or in countries where there's little perceived need for a military.
I can't fault your analysis: on the whole, I think you present a more nuanced view of these civics. Military history is certainly not my specialty, and I'm happy to defer to your judgement in that regard. That said, I generally use "flavour" arguments to augment my gameplay arguments, so I'll stick to the latter in this post:
On the contrary, I think -50% upgrade costs fits the nature of a peacetime civic too well. As more of a builder than a warmonger, I adopt Conscription in the Classical Era and never look back. I have little incentive to explore the other options. So, for the sake of diversity (if nothing else), I feel that the best peacetime bonuses should not be concentrated in one civic, even in the Military column.
Fair point. But HR does operate on the scale of civilizations; and it cannot model internal conflicts. As a Military civic, Vassalage must provide benefits consistent with the idea of vassals cooperating with the central government in waging war against barbarian peoples or other civilizations. (Ordinary internal politicking and feudal warfare are better represented by the Aristocracy civic.)
I would still classify most World War II militaries as Standing Armies that supplemented their forces with conscripts. (In gameplay terms, that would be akin setting off a Golden Age, switching to Conscription to recruit some units, then switching back to Standing Army.) My one exception might be the Soviet Union, which relied heavily on conscription in its desperate bid to halt the German advance. As for the present day, I cannot help but think of the Israel Defense Forces as a Standing Army. Military service is mandatory for most Israeli citizens, true; but they do not all serve in combat positions (the army needs programmers and technicians, too) and only volunteers stay for more than the two to three years required. That is a far cry from the fate of conscripts in the Classical Era. And, of course, the IDF has a professional staff and links to the military-industrial complex, like all Standing Armies.
Bottom line: The ability to draft units is extremely powerful, both in times of peace and during war. Conscription does not need another powerful and flexible bonus, such as -50% upgrade costs.
Simon_Jester
Prince
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If we're going to split hairs that finely, "Conscription" should probably be renamed something more like "Levee en Masse" or "Peasant Levies" or some such.
Fair enough, though I'd like it to at least have some flavor bonus if nothing else.
I won't comment on the Military civics for the moment (busy on other stuff), other than to say I don't mind Standing Army being a little stronger (Warrior Code too) but not that strong.
Hmm, worth thinking about. If we do give it a new bonus it has to not be very good for the first part of the game. I don't particularly want to break up Social Welfare either, I think it works really well as is.
Yes, I'd only increase the unhealthiness of Slavery if all the Industrial stuff is increased appropriately first. The Holy Office needs to be completely reviewed at some point.
No problem, I think it might still need a small penalty of some sort though.
I think +1 wealth/specialist would be more suitable, that could only combine with Industrialism for +2 wealth/specialist. Research/specialist that early would be fairly powerful, especially as Democracy with its unlimited scientists becomes available at a similar time.
Yeah I think they're the right way around. Is either of them too powerful for its civic though? Can Bureaucracy compete with Free Market? If not then perhaps it should keep Windmills. I kinda like them there as I think the civic should have some sort of connection to a food improvement, not just production/commerce ones.
In fact, here's an alternate idea for that bonus: +1 food and production from Watermill, Windmill. Gives the civic a slightly different niche though possibly too strong?
Speaking of Environmentalism, I'd like to get rid of it's corporation penalty and give it a bonus there instead to make it more competitive.
Removing the No State Religion requirement does make a certain amount of sense, though it does make for interesting diplomacy via the Apostolic Palace and U.N. Either way we still need another bonus for this trait to replace the missionary one.
Food penalties are actually a lot harsher than health penalties and scale much more punitively as a city grows larger. Even a small percentage would weaken the civic drastically. Good point on the mines and quarries though, convinces me that the Slavery's unhealthiness shouldn't be increased.
For now, yes. There is a very limited range of bonuses/penalties available when designing civics (that the AI can understand). Any new civics added would pretty much have to be slightly reshuffled versions of the existing ones which would only serve to make the selection less interesting.
First post updated.
Hmm, worth thinking about. If we do give it a new bonus it has to not be very good for the first part of the game. I don't particularly want to break up Social Welfare either, I think it works really well as is.
Yes, I'd only increase the unhealthiness of Slavery if all the Industrial stuff is increased appropriately first. The Holy Office needs to be completely reviewed at some point.
No problem, I think it might still need a small penalty of some sort though.
I think +1 wealth/specialist would be more suitable, that could only combine with Industrialism for +2 wealth/specialist. Research/specialist that early would be fairly powerful, especially as Democracy with its unlimited scientists becomes available at a similar time.
Yeah I think they're the right way around. Is either of them too powerful for its civic though? Can Bureaucracy compete with Free Market? If not then perhaps it should keep Windmills. I kinda like them there as I think the civic should have some sort of connection to a food improvement, not just production/commerce ones.
In fact, here's an alternate idea for that bonus: +1 food and production from Watermill, Windmill. Gives the civic a slightly different niche though possibly too strong?
Speaking of Environmentalism, I'd like to get rid of it's corporation penalty and give it a bonus there instead to make it more competitive.
Removing the No State Religion requirement does make a certain amount of sense, though it does make for interesting diplomacy via the Apostolic Palace and U.N. Either way we still need another bonus for this trait to replace the missionary one.
Food penalties are actually a lot harsher than health penalties and scale much more punitively as a city grows larger. Even a small percentage would weaken the civic drastically. Good point on the mines and quarries though, convinces me that the Slavery's unhealthiness shouldn't be increased.
For now, yes. There is a very limited range of bonuses/penalties available when designing civics (that the AI can understand). Any new civics added would pretty much have to be slightly reshuffled versions of the existing ones which would only serve to make the selection less interesting.
First post updated.
A new bonus? I'm running outta ideas, here!
Well, let's see. The bonus has to be commerce- or production- oriented, to match the other Government civics. It should be weak in the early game, and grow stronger. The more I think about it, the more appealing +1 commerce (or production) on Villages and Towns looks. If you don't want to break up Social Welfare, you could simply add a second Village and Town bonus to Democracy. (You could also limit the bonus to just Towns, say +2 commerce Towns, like the BtS Free Speech civic.) If that makes Towns too strong, you can remove their Railroad bonus. (Railroads already improve the yields of Mines, Quarries, and Lumbermills, so they'll be fine.)
The alternatives - a flat percent bonus to production, commerce, research, or gold - are not particularly appealing.
I think its High Upkeep is penalty enough. I estimate that Confederations pay an extra 5 gold/turn in the Renaissance (rising to 10-20 gold/turn in the Industrial and Modern Eras) compared to Medium Upkeep Aristocracies, not accounting for inflation. In some ways, those upkeep costs are more onerous than War Wariness, culture, or GPP penalties: there's no way to work around them!
Sounds good to me.
If anything, I think Bureaucracy is stronger than Free Market. +50% trade route commerce increases trade route yield by +1 commerce (when it affects the rounding) but never more than that. Assuming every city has five trade routes (1 base, +1 from Record Keeping, +1 from Guilds, +1 from Corporation, +1 from Castle) that all benefit from the rounding effect, Free Market delivers +5 commerce per city. By contrast, with only two milling improvements per city, Bureaucracy can deliver +2 production and +2 commerce. And even -25% corporation costs balance out against +100% gold from various shrines and corporate headquarters in the capital. Free Market is just fine, I think.
+1 food and production is definitely too powerful. Windmills are already a strong improvement: they effectively produce +2 food when you account for the health penalty on mines. Anyway, extra food is always hard to balance (just think Sid's Sushi.) I still prefer +1 production and commerce on Watermills and Lumbermills. These improvements are rarely built, so it makes sense to give them a boost; at the same time, players can't build them on every tile, so the civic stays balanced.
Environmentalism is quite strong on paper: no health from population and +2 commerce on Windmills. (The health penalty to mines makes both bonuses more meaningful.) The civic remains uncompetitive because it arrives so late; players cannot prepare for it because most games are over before anyone reaches Sustainability. The best thing you could do for Environmentalism (apart from removing the corporation penalty, which I support) is move it earlier in the tech tree: around Nutrition at least, if not Ecology.
Removing the "No State Religion" requirement is equivalent to adding a bonus. It allows players to participate in the Apostolic Palace, accumulate "We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith" diplomacy modifiers, and benefit from religious Wonders such as the University of Sankore. Does Free Religion really need another bonus? +1 happy/religion is quite strong now that there are up to 17 religions available.
First post updated with proposed changes to Military civics and a few other things discussed. Notes on the Military changes:
• Conscription: Decided that I agree about the cheaper upgrades being too strong here particularly during Experience bonus in borders was indeed the obvious replacement.
• Vassalage: This becomes the least military-focused military civic but I think that's okay, some variety is good. The bonuses suit the civic thematically. Unlimited Spies is staying with Aristocracy, I don't there to be 5 civic categories that can enable an unlimited specialist type.
• Warrior Code and Standing Army: Lots of shuffles between these two but I think they're reasonably balanced and maintain their theme reasonably well too.
Heh, I know the feeling all too well.
I think I'll go with a second +1 commerce for Villages and Towns. I don't want it to be too strong. This is enough to encourage choosing Democracy to complement other civics later in the game.
I suspected as much but always to good to throw an idea out there for a second opinion. I'll leave it at +1 production and commerce, and remove windmills.
For now I'll drop the corporation penalty but leave it at Sustainability until I've thought more about how I want to handle that section of the tree. I agree that it's primarily a problem with a techtree rather than the civic itself.
Unsure on this one still. It is strong but it's a one-trick civic. Could at least use a small flavour bonus if we can think of one. 0.9.4 is very nearly finished now though so if nothing comes to mind before I package it up then it'll do.
• Conscription: Decided that I agree about the cheaper upgrades being too strong here particularly during Experience bonus in borders was indeed the obvious replacement.
• Vassalage: This becomes the least military-focused military civic but I think that's okay, some variety is good. The bonuses suit the civic thematically. Unlimited Spies is staying with Aristocracy, I don't there to be 5 civic categories that can enable an unlimited specialist type.
• Warrior Code and Standing Army: Lots of shuffles between these two but I think they're reasonably balanced and maintain their theme reasonably well too.
A new bonus? I'm running outta ideas, here!
Heh, I know the feeling all too well.
I think I'll go with a second +1 commerce for Villages and Towns. I don't want it to be too strong. This is enough to encourage choosing Democracy to complement other civics later in the game.
I suspected as much but always to good to throw an idea out there for a second opinion. I'll leave it at +1 production and commerce, and remove windmills.
For now I'll drop the corporation penalty but leave it at Sustainability until I've thought more about how I want to handle that section of the tree. I agree that it's primarily a problem with a techtree rather than the civic itself.
Unsure on this one still. It is strong but it's a one-trick civic. Could at least use a small flavour bonus if we can think of one. 0.9.4 is very nearly finished now though so if nothing comes to mind before I package it up then it'll do.
Shouldn't Standing Army cost a little more maintenance?
Are the "lower military support cost" related to popluation size? I remember vaguely, there were two slightly different ways of decreasing unit costs. (Sorry, haven't got time to look the thing up, just a quick note, since you're entering the final strech for 0.9.4.)
Are the "lower military support cost" related to popluation size? I remember vaguely, there were two slightly different ways of decreasing unit costs. (Sorry, haven't got time to look the thing up, just a quick note, since you're entering the final strech for 0.9.4.)
I'm not sure what you're referring to with 'maintenance'. Do you mean the upkeep (which is set to high), the discount for upgrading units or something else entirely?
Yes. There is a base number of units that you get for free (5, same as BTS) and after that it is based on population (set to 20%, BTS is 10%). I forget how these mechanics interact exactly but they do scale with mapsize in some fashion.
I was looking through some of the older civic schemes and I came across a mechanic I tried for a while that I forgot all about. Here's an alternate version of Warrior Code and Standing Army (some values not defined). Not sure if it's an improvement but throwing it out for discussion:
Warrior Code
Requires Steel Working
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General appearance
• +25% culture in all cities
• +2 happiness from Barracks
Standing Army
Requires Military Conduct
??? Upkeep
• New units receive +X experience
• +25% military unit production
• +1 wealth upkeep per unit
Sorry for the unclearness (not always intended
). I meant probably these lines:<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>1</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
and
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>.
During peace time, army reservists pay taxes rather than cost money. Conscripts are only drafted when necessary. Only professional soldiers have to be payed in any case.
Standing Army should be strong, but very expensive.
Howard Mahler
Since Civ 1
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Messages
- 619
Democracy was already too strong.
I had recommended adding back in the war weariness.
Instead you added back in a bonus.
Perhaps it would be useful to give my thoughts.
Unlimited scientists and 50% GPP work very well together with one common strategy of a great person farm. You can now have a whole bunch of scientists running on one city and get extra great person points.
So anyone who likes this strategy or is in a game position where this is strategy is a good idea, can switch to Democracy and get a very big boost to this strategy.
I have no problem with this, provided it is balanced with some disadvantage.
The war weariness fits in well.
And provided you are giving up the advantages of the other possible civics.
You have strengthened some of the others, but Democracy is still significantly stronger than the others.
Codification is still too weak.
Slavery should be +2 unhealthiness as currently.
It is a very strong and unique ability (even if less strong than in BTS) and needs a significant penalty,
particularly with the added bonus.
In any case, you probably have too few sources of unhealthiness in 0.9.4.
Standing Army is too strong.
Even without the happiness bonus for Barracks it may be a little too strong.
I still think Rationalism is too weak!
I do not see how + for mills fits in well with Bureaucracy.
Might be better to come up with something else here and move these bonuses to somewhere else where they make more sense.
+ happiness from some appropriate building(s) would be one idea.
The +1 trade route makes Confederation too strong.
A % plus to trade routes would be better here, perhaps 25%.
I would return the +1 trade route to Free Market.
I had recommended adding back in the war weariness.
Instead you added back in a bonus.
Perhaps it would be useful to give my thoughts.
Unlimited scientists and 50% GPP work very well together with one common strategy of a great person farm. You can now have a whole bunch of scientists running on one city and get extra great person points.
So anyone who likes this strategy or is in a game position where this is strategy is a good idea, can switch to Democracy and get a very big boost to this strategy.
I have no problem with this, provided it is balanced with some disadvantage.
The war weariness fits in well.
And provided you are giving up the advantages of the other possible civics.
You have strengthened some of the others, but Democracy is still significantly stronger than the others.
Codification is still too weak.
Slavery should be +2 unhealthiness as currently.
It is a very strong and unique ability (even if less strong than in BTS) and needs a significant penalty,
particularly with the added bonus.
In any case, you probably have too few sources of unhealthiness in 0.9.4.
Standing Army is too strong.
Even without the happiness bonus for Barracks it may be a little too strong.
I still think Rationalism is too weak!
I do not see how + for mills fits in well with Bureaucracy.
Might be better to come up with something else here and move these bonuses to somewhere else where they make more sense.
+ happiness from some appropriate building(s) would be one idea.
The +1 trade route makes Confederation too strong.
A % plus to trade routes would be better here, perhaps 25%.
I would return the +1 trade route to Free Market.
Civics
Feedback and Development
This is the official thread for the discussion and development of Civics. I will endeavour to keep this first post updated with any changes proposed since the last released version of the mod. Unchanged civics are not listed, and the most recent changes are in red.
Last Updated: 18th July
Version: 0.9.4
--- GOVERNMENT ---
Aristocracy
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from number of cities
• Unlimited Spies
Confederation
Requires Guilds
High Upkeep
• No Maintenance costs from Distance to Palace
• +1 trade route
Democracy
Requires Politics
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +50% GPP
• +1 commerce from Village, Town
--- LEGAL ---
Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• +1 happiness per military unit stationed in a city
• +1 espionage per specialist
Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +5 happiness in largest cities
• +1 wealth from specialists
Jurisdiction
Requires Civil Liberties
Medium Upkeep
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
• +2 happiness from Courthouse
Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
Medium Upkeep
• 1 free specialist per city
• Happiness penalty for civs without Equal Rights
--- LABOUR ---
Slavery
Requires Masonry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 unhealthiness in all cities
• +1 commerce from Plantation, Quarry
• Can sacrifice population to finish production
Caste System
Requires Priesthood
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited artists
• Workers build improvements +50% faster
• +1 production from Workshop
Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +1 wealth from Specialists
• +2 unhealthiness in all cities
Social Welfare (formerly Emancipation)
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• +1 production and commerce from Village, Town
• Can spend wealth to finish production
--- ECONOMIC ---
Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1 commerce from Camp, Mine
• +1 happiness from Granary
• -25% Great Person birth rate
Bureaucracy (replaces Mercantilism)
Requires Printing
High Upkeep
• +100% wealth in Capital
• +1 production and commerce from Lumbermill, Watermill
• No Foreign Corporations
Free Market
Requires Corporation
Medium Upkeep
• +50% commerce from Trade Routes
• -25% Corporation expenses
Environmentalism
Requires Sustainability
High Upkeep
• No unhealthiness from population
•+2 commerce from Windmill, Forest Preserve
--- MILITARY ---
Clan Warfare
Requires Riding
Low Upkeep
• No war weariness
• Increased wealth from pillaging and capturing cities
Conscription
Requires Law
Low Upkeep
• Can draft units each turn
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
Vassalage
Requires Fealty
Medium Upkeep
• Lower military unit support costs
•+25% espionage in all cities
• +2 happiness from Castle
Warrior Code
Requires Steel Working
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General appearance
• +25% military unit production
• +25% culture in all cities
Standing Army (formerly Professional Army)
Requires Military Conduct
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 experience
• -50% unit upgrade cost
• +2 happiness from Barracks
--- RELIGIOUS ---
Organized Religion
Requires Divination
High Upkeep
• Can build Missionaries without Monasteries
• Cities with state religion construct buildings +25% faster
Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
Medium Upkeep
• +2 research per specialist
• +2 happiness from School
Free Religion
Requires Humanism
Medium Upkeep
• No state religion <-- candidate for removal, depending on strength of other bonuses
• +1 happiness per non-state religion in a city
• *** Missing bonus ***
Sorry for the unclearness (not always intended
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>1</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
As the military civics are in the first post none of them are using this option, it's set to 0. However I'm considering using it for Standing Army to allow that civic to be strong but expensive as you suggest.
Vassalage has the military one of these set to 20. In BTS the equivalent civic has the all units one set to 10.
However you miss out on a lot of production and commerce/wealth by choosing Democracy over the other government civics. This is the the civic's inherent penalty, to add another would make it too weak.
The question though is whether the strategy you describe is strong throughout the game, particularly the mid to late game. If it is, then then we don't need the village/town bonus. If it's only really useful in the first half of the game then that bonus needs to stay so that Democracy is competitive later.
It's alright now, but I might give Authoritarianism a penalty.
It's been given an indirect penalty by having the food storage component of the Granary split into two buildings and by mines causing unhealthiness.
Wait and see, there's been a lot of subtle changes to address this that don't involve unhealthiness. For example, some resources are a lot rarer and not every civilization will have access to them.
See my alternate suggestion a few posts back and let me know what you think.
I disagree, it's stronger than in 0.9.3 and is now comparable to Altruism (depending on your strategy) as it should be. I'd like Free Religion to be at a similar level.
The mills represent state run or regulated business appropriate to the era. Remember that this Bureaucracy is an Economic civic, not a Legal one like in BTS. The other choice was workshops but are already used by Professionalism and fit better there. There are already 2 +happiness from buildings civics in the Economic category, any more would be overkill given happiness is not the focus of the category.
And trust me, due to the limited array of options available to civics, there really isn't anything else left to come up with. We've used everything we can already.
It will be stronger on an Archipelago map but a free trade route will be no matter where I put it. 25% trade route commerce will be far too weak on other map types.
Hmm. -1 gold/military unit certainly fits, but I'm worried the costs would grow out of control. In BtS, the Pacifism civic worked the same way; and even with No Upkeep, it was too expensive compared to the other Religion civics unless you kept the bare minimum of one garrison unit per city. The best way to represent the costs associated with a Standing Army is make it the only High Upkeep civic in the Military column:
Warrior Code
Requires Steel Working
Medium Upkeep
+25% unit production
+25% culture in all cities
+2 happiness from Barracks
Standing Army
Requires Military Conduct
High Upkeep
New units receive +2 experience
+100% Great General emergence
-50% upgrade costs
Can you code "Immunity to Inquisition"? This would be of particular benefit to the AI: as it stands, it is far too easy to sabotage an AI attempt at Culture Victory by purging minor religions from its cities. Even if the AI doesn't understand the change, it would benefit.
A related question: Are you supposed to earn gold from a successful Inquisition? The on-screen message implies as much: "An inquisition in ----- has successfully purged all heathen religions and wealth was confiscated from the heretics." But nothing actually happens.
Right. I argue that once you've built an Academy, Library, and Observatory (for a total of six Scientist specialists) in your GPP farm, not to mention a Bath, Civic Square, and Royal Cemetery (for a full +200% GPP), you don't need Democracy anymore. That's why the civic needs a late game bonus.
I'm not sure that's necessary. +1 happy/military unit might be stronger than +5 happy/X largest cities, if you make full use of it; but +1 gold/specialist is way better than +1 espionage/specialist. And Authoritarianism already comes with High Upkeep.
No upkeep is actually very powerful, in fact there is a significantly bigger margin between No Upkeep and Low Upkeep than there is between Low Upkeep and High Upkeep. No Upkeep and +1 wealth per unit is a mechanic with potential but it would be very hard to balance right. best left alone for now is the conclusion I've come to here.
I don't mind lowering Warrior Code's upkeep but that configuration makes Standing Army far too strong, even for High Upkeep. In fact it's pretty much given it the three strongest bonuses and Warrior Code the three weakest. Here's my thoughts on each bonus:
• +25% culture in all cities: flavour, suits Warrior Code only.
• -50% upgrade costs: strong, only makes sense for Standing Army
• +100% Great General: strong, makes sense with either civic
• +25% unit production: moderately strong, gets weaker the later in game it is, makes more sense with Standing Army (able to mobilize new troops much more effectively)
• New units receive +2 experience: strong, makes sense for either civic as both have a strong focus on training and expertise
• +2 happiness from Barracks: moderate. Suits either civic though 'Barracks' does seem more appropriate to Standing Army. It's tricky to imagine noble knights/samurai/tarkan/etc stationed in barracks.
• -50% upgrade costs: strong, only makes sense for Standing Army
• +100% Great General: strong, makes sense with either civic
• +25% unit production: moderately strong, gets weaker the later in game it is, makes more sense with Standing Army (able to mobilize new troops much more effectively)
• New units receive +2 experience: strong, makes sense for either civic as both have a strong focus on training and expertise
• +2 happiness from Barracks: moderate. Suits either civic though 'Barracks' does seem more appropriate to Standing Army. It's tricky to imagine noble knights/samurai/tarkan/etc stationed in barracks.
You know, the more I think about it the more I feel that the problems I'm having with these two civics are because we moved Standing Army so much later in the tree. When it was unlocked at Employment the bonuses made good sense. It was expensive but worth it if you could afford it. It could have used a slight boost possibly. Warrior Code was the last military civic to be unlocked, it was a little too strong compared to all the other options. New proposal:
Warrior Code
Requires Steel Working
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 experience
• +100% Great General emergence
• +25% culture in all cities
Standing Army
Requires Employment
High Upkeep
• +25% unit production
• +2 happiness from Barracks
• -50% upgrade costs
Requires Steel Working
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 experience
• +100% Great General emergence
• +25% culture in all cities
Standing Army
Requires Employment
High Upkeep
• +25% unit production
• +2 happiness from Barracks
• -50% upgrade costs
Warrior Code remains identical to the 0.9.3 version except it shifts earlier to Steel Working (to match the appropriate units) and it's upkeep increases. This brings it in-line with the other military civics.
Standing Army (we can keep the name change) is identical to 0.9.3 except it gains the upgrade discount, a good boost to help offset its high cost and keep it relevant. I realise that Standing Armies were the exception rather than the norm prior to the Late Middle Ages but it's not unreasonable to make them available earlier and frankly I think it's more balanced this way.
It might be plausible to swap the xp and production bonuses if it's better for balance, though I feel that weakens the definition of each a bit. No other swaps make sense to me.
Yes, though not for 0.9.4.
I think so yes, it's been ages since I looked at that code. It's borrowed from another mod, I've made minimal changes to it so far so I'm not very familiar with it yet.
In BTS, Pacifism's +1 unit upkeep wasn't only combined with the Civic No Upkeep but also a 100 % GP birth rate. If a strategy was heavily relying on GPs, it was probably worth switching to Pacifism, regardless of unit expenses. You know how difficult it is to think of balance only comparing Civics with each other column by column or even with the full tableau in mind. There are so many synergies with overall game strategies, Leadertraits, wonder effects, and more. We don't know what special features will be in 0.9.9, that invite us to pick an overly expensive Civic because of very useful other advantages. For now, it's a pity to omit the +1 unit upkeep, for it's one of the few cases (to my taste), that a Civic's particular trait matches its theme without thinking twice.
I agree, I certainly want to take another look at it in the future.
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