Feedback on UHVs and Gameplay

[Edmund Ironside]

The thread where you can give feedback on how the experience of playing RFCGW was for you.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

I can't write nice gameplay guides like Autumn Leaf does, but I still thought I could give some basic feedback.
Playing as the Sumerians:
1. Lost the Tech goal almost immediately. I chose my first tech as the Wheel, but apparently so did the Egyptians. So that was a fail. There was nothing I could do differently without failing the UHV. Maybe the Egyptian starting tech should be changed so that they can't immediately research the Wheel?
2. My bad luck with the tech goal was balanced out a little bit with the culture goal, which I achieved despite doing almost nothing culturally (I think I built a temple with 1 turn to spare) as the Egyptians also did nothing to increase their culture.
3. Should there be a Barbarian city spawn in early Mesopotamia to help simulate the city state conflict that was prevalent in the 4000-2000 BC period?

 

[Edmund Ironside]

I'm divided on this one. On the one hand I think the Hittites UHVs are too militaristic (ie. all 3 of them), on the other hand the game I had as them was my most fun RFC Greek World game to date.
But perhaps the Phoenicia and Babylon UHVs could be combined together, and a tech, culture, or score UHV added with a slightly later finishing date (so that they have to deal with some Sea People attacks).

 

[Autumn Leaf]

I'm not liking the Etruscan UHV so far . Not complaining mind you. (Well OK, I'm complaining - but I need to win one first before I can post a playthrough!)

The Etruscan UU - any unit, really, that has to go up against Legions - requires Copper, and there is none in Italy. The nearest Copper is west of Caesaraugusta in Spain, although Salamantica is even better. But I don't have time to buiild the long Roads to connect it to my capital. Nobody has any available to trade. There isn't time to research Iron Working to reveal the Iron near Velathri. Why give me a UU that is poorly designed for the challenges it will face, and that I can't build anyway in time for it to do me any good?

I've determined that OCC ain't a winning stragedy here. I hoped I could wear down the Roman army through attrition, or capture Rome from the south by a surprise attack after the Legions go north, but I simply couldn't build enough Archers and Javelineers. Maybe I should've started training them earlier. Maybe I'll try that next time. Or maybe I'll try ICS.

ETA: After my initial loss I tested out some scenarios by limited WB intervention - such as giving Velathri a Castle, promoting all my units to L3, etc. No good for writing a playthrough, but good for finding the edges of what is possible. At best I won one round, but next turn the Legions rolled over me anyway. It tells me that if I'm gonna win OCC against Jules, I'm gonna need a MUCH bigger army!

Spoiler Defeat! :

[/ISPOILER]

 

[Autumn Leaf]

I'm not liking the Etruscan UHV so far . Not complaining mind you. (Well OK, I'm complaining - but I need to win one first before I can post a playthrough!)

The Etruscan UU - any unit, really, that has to go up against Legions - requires Copper, and there is none in Italy. The nearest Copper is west of Caesaraugusta in Spain, although Salamantica is even better. But I don't have time to buiild the long Roads to connect it to my capital. Nobody has any available to trade. There isn't time to research Iron Working to reveal the Iron near Velathri. Why give me a UU that is poorly designed for the challenges it will face, and that I can't build anyway in time for it to do me any good?

I've determined that OCC ain't a winning stragedy here. I hoped I could wear down the Roman army through attrition, or capture Rome from the south by a surprise attack after the Legions go north, but I simply couldn't build enough Archers and Javelineers. Maybe I should've started training them earlier. Maybe I'll try that next time. Or maybe I'll try ICS.

ETA: After my initial loss I tested out some scenarios by limited WB intervention - such as giving Velathri a Castle, promoting all my units to L3, etc. No good for writing a playthrough, but good for finding the edges of what is possible. At best I won one round, but next turn the Legions rolled over me anyway. It tells me that if I'm gonna win OCC against Jules, I'm gonna need a MUCH bigger army!

Spoiler Defeat! :

View attachment 656245[/ISPOILER]

Further to this, I have now tested the Etruscans several ways and I can't see any legitimate way they defeat Rome. Rome declares war on spawn, then comes for the Etruscans with a death stack of 8 Legions and 5 Catapults. I haven't yet managed to get 6 cities, 2000 Gold and 500 Culture before Rome spawns. Not that it matters, as to win a Historical Victory you need to be around in 250 BC. That means you must survive the Roman onslaught.

• If I found a city in any of my UHV areas, it flips to Rome. Founding cities outside the UHV areas doesn't help.
• If I attack Massalia (still only 1 pop in 512 BC) it costs me half my force and auto-razes.
• If I try for units, I can't build more than a dozen or so before Rome spawns, and at best a couple more before the Legions break down my walls and swarm me. I'm outnumbered AND outrmatched.
• I have tried several combinations of Rams, Javelins and Archers (no Copper, so I can build neither Axemen nor Estruscan Spearmen; and I can't research Iron Working in 48 turns, let alone build the necessary units). Nup.
• I even tried an ambush, with most of my forces hiding south of Vesuvius. Unfortunately, Jules countered it. Even if the ambush somehow worked, by that time the Phoenician and Carhaginian cities had flipped to him and Jules would have survived the fall of his capital with his Legions intact and at my walls.

I did "win" once, but only by cheating. For some reason Jules chose to circle round and approach me from the NE instead of coming up directly from the S. I conjured up 7 Rams and 7 Javelineers out of nothing, promoted them all to Level 3, then when his army was nearly in position, I swarmed down on Rome and managed to carry it for the loss of several Rams and a Javelineer. Then I doubled back to Velathri, gave myself another couple of Rams, and Rammed the Legions the turn before they broke my walls. After the Roman attack (which killed several Legions and most of my Archers), I counter-attacked the injured Legions with a surviving Ram and all my Javelineers. It was still a close-run thing.

So, has anyone reading this actually defeated Rome in v2.1 as Etruscans, playing for real? What am I missing?

 

[Edmund Ironside]

The immediate thought that comes to mind is to make the Etruscan special unit not require 'copper.' But I am wondering if more then this is needed. Perhaps have the goals finish earlier so that you have to face less rime (or no time) fighting the Romans (reducing the requirements to compensate for the reduced time available)?

 

[Autumn Leaf]

The immediate thought that comes to mind is to make the Etruscan special unit not require 'copper.' But I am wondering if more then this is needed. Perhaps have the goals finish earlier so that you have to face less rime (or no time) fighting the Romans (reducing the requirements to compensate for the reduced time available)?

Toughening the Etruscans enough to give them a fighting chance against Rome risks unbalancing the game play. The Etruscans exist to give Rome an early tussle. They're not really meant to survive; Rome is much more important to the game. The historical Etruscans lasted until 27 BC, but in game terms the AI Rome needs such an initial boost as to overwhelm them.

I think I'd prefer changing the goals to ones that either finish earlier or that can be achieved alongside Rome. Simply surviving the Roman onslaught is a massively challenging UHV in its own right. As it stands, the Etruscans cannot afford to spend any effort on their UHVs until they solve the "Roman Question". Demanding they establish and maintain a territorial hegemony in Roman territory after 512 BC, for example, is too much because their territory was at its largest around 750 BC and declined from there on (faster after 500 BC). They need to have an incentive to found cities before 512 BC that they can give up after 512 BC. This will ultimately help Rome grow. Anyway, a challenge like this should BE a UHV.

Either provide a temporary Copper resource under Velathri (it can be removed after they discover Iron Working or after a specific date), or simply remove the need for Copper from the Etruscan Spearman. PLUS, make that unit very tenacious in city defense (even better than Archers) but very weak on offense. The AI won't stack enough in a city to hold off the Roman death stack, but a human player will (after the first time ). Most of the Roman stack will then still be available to Jules for later ops, but against the human it will be reduced to a nub.

For UHV #1, you could ask the Etruscans to establish x (where x is 3-4) cities in Italy (2), Venezia (1) & Corsica (1) before 512 BC, for example. That's pretty challenging in its own right, as it demands they research Boat Building, build a Coracle, train Settlers, and build vulnerable cities. Their mainland cities, at least, would flip when Rome spawns. The AI Etruria would be caught flat-footed and die, but a fool-me-once human player could pull their garrisons home to defend Velathri, then later build Axemen/Swordsmen to retake their cities.

The "Roman Question" UHV #2 would be to make Peace with Rome. Since the two civs start at War and Jules won't talk for some time, this means Etruria must survive the war. Whether they fight Rome to a draw at Velathri, or build/capture cities outside the Roman lands and cling on there could be left open, providing a "pacifist" solution.

And UHV #3? The current #1 or #3 might work.

ETA: Settlers are very time-consuming to produce in early cities, hence my "3-4 cities" suggestion. I'll try a game to see if it's possible. It may be possible to get the Coracle and Settlers out, but we also need to build defensive units in the same 48-turn pre-Roman period! In all my tests I left building Settlers till after Rome spawned, because there was no point giving Jules cities I needed later for a late-maturing UHV. If the ES doesn't need Copper, they can be built by the new cities for their garrisons then moved to the capital just before 512 BC.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

I've been playing Nubia today. That one's kinda fun. I had a lucky start where Wast was Independent, so the 3 Gold resources UHV #1 was pretty much in the bag (but I had to scurry to complete the gold mines when I suddenly realised 542 BC was fast approaching). It's now 362 BC and I'm only 35 points behind Phoenicia for Score, so that's looking pretty good for UHV #3. The troublesome UHV is #2, the GP one. Generating GPs, that I can do. Getting the *right* GPs, that's hard. I had Memphis TWO turns from Yaziikaya (for the GA) when Egypt (surviving in Tanis) scooped it. Grrr. I might have tried whipping it, but I was distracted, and didn't notice till later. Checking now via WB, I see that the GE Zhang Heng was in Tanis the turn before.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

OK, Nubian UHV #2 is bugged. I just checked and after settling just one GP (a Prophet) in Meroe, it is marked complete.

Issue easily reproducible. I don't have a relevant save from the 3rd C BC, but I went back to the move when I settled Meroe (770 BC) and WB'd a Prophet then settled him. Next turn, UHV #2 is YES.

Relevant saves attached. 770 BC has him settled; in 764 BC UHV #2 is YES.

I'll play on; it's not a horrible nightmare like Etruria's Roman question. But I'll only count it as a win if I can genuinely meet the "1 of each" requirement by 350 AD. I just have to figure out what counts. Do I need a G General? A G Spy? I think I can test that ...

ETA: The bug appears to be specific to a GREAT PROPHET. Tests suggest no other GP causes the bug. Or perhaps no other GP need apply. I have attached a vanilla 770 BC to allow tests.

                hasAllGreatPeople = False
                if meroeCity != None:
                    hasAllGreatPeople = True
                    for i in range(gc.getNumSpecialistInfos()):
                        specialist = gc.getSpecialistInfo(i)
                        unitClass = specialist.getGreatPeopleUnitClass()
                        if unitClass != -1:
                            unit = gc.getUnitInfo(unitClass)
                            for j in range(gc.getNumSpecialistInfos()):
                                if unit.getGreatPeoples(j) and meroeCity.getFreeSpecialistCount(j) == 0:
                                    hasAllGreatPeople = False
                                    break

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Except for the bug mentioned above, I have my Nubians game won. However, it's after 11 PM here and my eyes are dropping, so I'm off to bed. I'll post to the Player Guide tomorrow once I grind it out from 208 AD to 400 AD and tidy up my notes. I have accumulated the necessary GPs in Meroe and my Score is about 2500 to 1800. Nobody is likely to overtake me unless I collapse. My Stability is +35 - and I'm thinking of giving Darius or Ramesses the Levantine cities that are dragging me down.

Nice job on the Nubian UHVs, guys.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Making the Etruscan spearman not require copper seems like a no brainer change.

I agree with the UHVs suggestions:
UHV #1, Ask the Etruscans to establish x (where x is 3-4) cities in Italy (2), Venezia (1) & Corsica (1) before 512 BC, for example.

The "Roman Question" UHV #2 would be to make Peace with Rome.
I like the idea behind the goal. It would be quite a unique goal. However it being unique has its drawbacks as it means there are no other UHVs from any RFC game I could try to copy code from, so I have no idea how to write the code for it. I don't know if @bluepotato thinks they might be able to do it?

UHV3 I think can be the 2000 gold goal. Move the deadline to 500 BC. Will probably need to reduce the gold requirement I guess?

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Making the Etruscan spearman not require copper seems like a no brainer change.

I agree with the UHVs suggestions:
UHV #1, Ask the Etruscans to establish x (where x is 3-4) cities in Italy (2), Venezia (1) & Corsica (1) before 512 BC, for example.

The "Roman Question" UHV #2 would be to make Peace with Rome.
I like the idea behind the goal. It would be quite a unique goal. However it being unique has its drawbacks as it means there are no other UHVs from any RFC game I could try to copy code from, so I have no idea how to write the code for it. I don't know if @bluepotato thinks they might be able to do it?

UHV3 I think can be the 2000 gold goal. Move the deadline to 500 BC. Will probably need to reduce the gold requirement I guess?

If Etruria succeeds in making Peace with Rome, the remaining UHV can occur later than 500 BC. If you can stop the Romans in 500 BC, you will have a breathing space while Rome is weak in which to work on it.

In other news, I just won a Historical Victory as Persians. My notes are rather voluminous and messy, so I probably won't post the playthrough till tomorrow. The Persians have their weaknesses, but if they can just avoid going broke early on, the Assyrian and Babylonian cities make them into a military-economic monster - which is entirely historical. The Great Engineer UHV #2 was a clever one, although as I just faced a similar challenge trying to get a Great Spy in Nubia, I had some ideas - none of which would have worked in time. Thank goodness for Babylon; the Hanging Gardens gave me both of the required GEs, the second on the last possible turn. Hammy nearly ruined it for me by building the Yazilikaya there, but the coin landed heads for me both times, and the extra Wonder sped up GP production. Downside, a GA from Babylon would have finished me. There must be better ways to get GEs fast, rather than relying on hokey religions and ancient wonders.

 

[bluepotato]

OK, Nubian UHV #2 is bugged. I just checked and after settling just one GP (a Prophet) in Meroe, it is marked complete.

Thanks for the report, should be fixed in the latest commit.
(Yes, all possible great specialists are needed. DoC-styled progress display would certainly help here... hopefully we'll get there one day )

EDIT:

The "Roman Question" UHV #2 would be to make Peace with Rome.
I like the idea behind the goal. It would be quite a unique goal. However it being unique has its drawbacks as it means there are no other UHVs from any RFC game I could try to copy code from, so I have no idea how to write the code for it. I don't know if @bluepotato thinks they might be able to do it?

Sounds good, and I could probably get it done... will look into it.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

I just tried the suggested new Etruscan UHVs. The Etruscan Spearmen I used for this test had +50% Hills Defense (Velathri is on a Hill), +50% City Defense, +100% against Melee (not horses), and -75% City Attack. One also had Combat I, courtesy of a free barb win. This made them powerful on defense and good against Legions in the field (useful for cleaning up the siege army), but hopeless for attacking a defended city. The bonus amounts are optional; a bit of tweaking will find the best combination.

Four cities was possible, barely (I settled Corsica the turn after Rome spawned, just in time for it to flip), but because I needed three Settlers and a Coracle, I was only able to build two Etruscan Spearmen. Even with City Walls and my two starting Archers, it was not enough to hold off the Legions! None of my 3 colonies was able to build an ES before Rome flipped them. I traded 200 Gold for Boat Building and researched Spokes, Celestial Navigation, and Trade (in that order). Then I turned my Research off to build my Treasury.

Rewinding one turn, I WB'd myself two additional ES. I was then able to survive Jules' attack and even ultimately to destroy his besieging army. During the ensuing standoff, I was able to recapture one of my cities (they were all still undefended and the Spartans destroyed the Venetian one) and I used that as leverage in making a Peace deal in 440 BC. So I think we're on the right track. Perhaps if I'd gone for ES from the start and ditched the Walls? But the Walls slowed Jules down; like any AI with Catapults, he just had to bombard before attacking.

I suggest UHV #1 should be 3 cities, 1 in Corsica, 2 in Venezia,/Italy. You still have to build the Coracle, but reducing the number means you can delay training the two Settlers till Velathri is larger and your Workers have built more improvements (faster build). The only Roads I built were on the NE, E and SE of Velathri, hoping to entice Jules to waste time going the long way, but no, he beelined from Rome to Velathri. I probably shoulda sent the guys to Corsica to chop wood!

The 2000 Gold or 500 Culture targets remain untested.

ETA: Failed 2000 Gold by 300 BC and 500 Culture by 250 BC. But it's not defintive.

ETAA: Played again with 3 cities target. Probably too easy. However, the test was spoilt when a random event gave me a +1 with Jules, putting us at Peace one turn before I could nab my colony back. Still missed the Gold and the Culture.

 

[Ianchen99]

So I've tried a few Civs UHV and here are my thoughts:

Indus Valley: feels too easy, you can easily get to 18 pop in Monarch difficulty for your capital so the population thing is no biggie. Maybe have somethings to hinder their growth???
Also the city placement names are kinda weird, i thought the capital is Mohenjo-Daro but the starting location is Harappa and left of it is Mohenjo-Daro?

Hitties: The only "hard" part is to take Babylon especially if it is heavily guarded by spearmans and bowmans. Also i've checked that it is not possible to research horse domestication so you are only relying on your 5 "Hulannai" for your conquest. If Babylonia is weak then, everything is a piece of cake, if all your "Hulas" dies then it's over.
Maybe unlock the Horse domestication research for Hitties?
Maybe increase the 15 kills to 20 kills to balance it out?

Phoneicia: Again city placement names are weird. I want to settle Carthage, I see a spot called "Carthage" right next to it is Qart Hadasht which is the same thing? Also when I sail at that point, it just points me to settle in Sardinia with no indication to point me to settle in Africa? Also I have TOO MUCH TIME to settle 1 city in Africa and 1 city in Iberia...maybe 2 cities in Africa and 2 cities in Iberia?
The 2nd UHV seems just a free UHV because you have nothing to do so I just built 2 scouts and explore the map...
The 3rd UHV I would like a indicator to check the progress. I mean I don't know how i won...
Also when Carthage spawns and it just auto raze my Carthage city, it just feels weird.. We are the same people no?

 

[bluepotato]

Indus Valley: feels too easy, you can easily get to 18 pop in Monarch difficulty for your capital so the population thing is no biggie. Maybe have somethings to hinder their growth???

Hm, maybe we could increase barbarian spawns. Though I feel that being showered with barbs is not much fun either...

City names: I know they're mostly broken, we've had them like this for a long time and nobody got around to fix them. IIRC the original problem is that the city name list was somehow retrofitted onto a larger version of the original map, and ever since everything is all over the place (except for the few places we fixed.)

An indicator of progress, yes it's something I want too. One day I might get around to implementing it

Carthage auto razing Carthage is dumb, I agree. Auto raze is my "solution" to all weird bugs starting city flips could result in (and squatting), but it's definitely less than ideal. I'll try to think of something better.