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Female leaders

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by liv, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    In one of the interviews from Beach he says that diversity will be a focus in choosing new civs and leaders. In terms of gender which women would you like to see included. Many of the ones we have so far have been new to civ maybe that will continue.

    Personally I would like to see a female Viking woman representing Norway as a second option. I think that would be appropriate. My suggestion would be Ingebjørg Håkonsdatter or Ingeborg of Norway. I have to think about how I would like her to be different from the current Norwegian ruler

    Wikipedia on Ingeborg
     
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  2. clapyourhands

    clapyourhands Chieftain

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    Jigonsaseh leading the Iroquois would be a refreshing change. Hiawatha's certainly deserving but a new leader, if the Iroquois do return, would be nice as well. She may not have been a leader in the strictest sense, but was integral in founding the confederacy and undoubtedly one of its most important figures--she certainly did more than some current and previous leaders in civ in leading and governing her people. She would definitely be diplomacy-focused, an alternative to the Iroquois in previous iterations. That would also make her as a leader tie in very well with a diplomacy-centered expansion.

    As for returning female leaders, Isabella for Spain and Elizabeth for England are ones people are hopeful for. Catherine's definitely one of, if not the best leader choice for Russia, but Peter does fulfill a similar niche that she would. Same goes for Theodora if they choose to use Justinian instead for Byzantium (either would be a worthy choice). I would like to see Wu Zetian return, though I can see why they chose Qin if they were going for memorable designs and personalities.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
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  3. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    Ah, Isabella, one of the women in history whose actions are most directly responsible for the most death, war, turmoil, and persecution. A decent choice for a civ leader, though, looking objectively at many of the male ones... :p
     
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  4. Mobfire

    Mobfire Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool

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  5. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Zetian of China (I believe she was in Civ2)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Kōken of Japan

    Those two, and six other Empresses regnant of Japan were somehow ignored and not mentioned at all in various sources and announcements that President Park Guen-hye of South Korea and President Tsai Ing-wen were the very first female heads-of-state (not just presidents) in ALL East Asian history. It's funny how those announcements and statistics work. Not very good historians available, obviously...
     
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  6. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    Lady Six Sky and Lady K'abel for the Maya.
    Maria Theresa if Austria returns.
    They messed up Egypt as Hatpshepsut is a better choice than Cleo.
    Empress Matilda is a possibility for England for the medieval period. Though her son would be a much better choice.
     
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  7. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    Shamsa of the Arabs (albeit, pre-Islamic Arabs of Antiquity - she was at war with the Neo-Assyrian Empire).

    I knew a Lebanese-Canadian woman once who had the first name Shamsa.
     
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  8. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    Wow those look interesting. I would enjoy any of those.

    Are there any good African females that can be added? Both the Americas and Africa should have good female representatives.

    For me if Ingeborg is not a go I would like a Swedish female ruler. Christina would be good. There would be so many possibilities with her for what you could add for game play. Maybe some combination of education and naval warfare.
     
  9. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Many good African female leaders choices exist. Among them are Dihya (Berbers), Idia (Benin), Yaa Asantewaa (Ashanti), and Anna Nzinga of Ndongo and Matamba who is currently a Great General in VI with a nod to her diplomatic/political prowess in her unique ability to generate an envoy (notably, NOT "Anna Nzinga of Kongo", as I have been saying dozens of times in this forum and in the General Discussion forum ad nauseum).

    Technically, Dido (Carthage) is also an African queen, though she originated from Tyre near modern-day Lebanon (and indeed, speaks with an Israeli accent in Civ V).

    I'm most looking forward to seeing Idia in-game due to her lore as a magician and healer as well as a warrior and political strategist (and also because we have a good idea of what she looked like), and Yaa Asantewaa as an anti-British Empire rebel (but also political and military leader of an entire empire), having starting the War of the Golden Stool (we have a speech from her which was rather famous also). We have a photo of Yaa Asantewaa, which is rather awesome, and a statue based on that photo.

    Dihya is perhaps a bit too legendary (and we have Tomyris already filling that kind of role), and Anna Nzinga doesn't quite lead an interesting civ (as she led two kingdoms which were tributaries of Kongo), so I don't see them as likely. I think for Carthage we may see Hannibal this time around since it would likely be easier to make an agenda for him than for the legendary Dido.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
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  10. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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  11. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    The announcement video for Rise and Fall had a very large female emphasize . I think they will almost have to follow that up with many new female leaders included so hopefully we will get some of our suggestions in.

    Maybe a female leader of a North American native tribe such as ......
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    To say nothing of the three queens-regnant of Silla. :lol: Very rarely is something the "first in history" when the media claims it's the first in history. :p

    I hope they don't shoehorn in a female Native American leader just for the sake of it like they did with France. There are a few possibilities--the above-mentioned Jigonhsasee of the Iroquois (though I'd prefer Joseph Brant), the Lady of Cofitichequi (chiefly significant for being abducted by De Soto after being chased out of her village by her people--terrific résumé) or Woman Chief of the Blackfoot (who aren't exactly a high priority for inclusion), plus a couple different female chiefs of the Powhatan (though that would be a missed opportunity to include Powhatan himself)--but none that I'd find very satisfying. Inclusiveness is great; tokenism not so much. There is absolutely no reason France of all civilizations needed a female leader, and I'd say the same of most Native American civs. Further south the Maya have some good options, though.
     
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  13. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    As long as they don't make the mistake they made in Civ2 of presenting Sacajawea as a Sioux "leader," when all she did, in the end was betray her people, in a long-term perspective, and never played any real leadership role for her own people of meaning or value and died a penniless drunk on the streets of an East Coast city...
     
  14. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    Rise and Fall baby. Rise and fall
     
  15. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Not sure I really agree with your assessment of Sacagawea, but she most certainly wasn't even vaguely connected to the Sioux in even the most distant fashion. That's like having Vicente Fox lead Canada--except Vicente Fox actually led a country. :p

    (I've complained about the Cherokee for essentially capitulating to white infringement to their own detriment on a number of occasions, but I do want to emphasize that I don't think cooperating with the US and other European powers is automatically the sign of a bad leader or civ choice. Chief Pushmataha of the Choctaw advocated peace, for example, but he was still a champion of his people. Likewise the Iroquois maintained their autonomy through diplomacy rather than warfare [with Europeans--they were aggressive towards other Native Americans, including driving the Sioux out of the Great Lakes and onto the Plains]. Contrast this with the Cherokee and Creek leadership who sold out the interests of their people for their own gain; I wouldn't put Sacagawea in that category--she was a woman who got dealt a very bad hand and made the best of it. Not that I want her leading the Sioux, the Shoshone, or Hidatsa/Crow.)
     
  16. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    Interesting. I would expect that if they come out with 9 leaders about 4 of them will be female. I think it would be nice to see a North American female leader and I think some of the nation were matriarchies. (I think. Not my area of expertise)

    If the Dutch is a likely civ being added they could pick Wilhelmina since she was queen during WW2 and they showed video depicting the Dutch resistance I think.
     
  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    There has been no known matriarchy in human history. What you're thinking of is that some of them were matrilineal (inheritance passes through the mother). You may also be thinking of the fact that in some Woodland and Great Lake tribes women owned the property--but before this seems like a victory for gender equality, that's because women gardened while men hunted: most tribes had rather strict divisions of labor (based on the widespread principle that women gave life, men took it). As mentioned above, there were a few female leaders, but they faced the same sort of prejudice and lack of confidence their Old World counterparts faced.
     
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  18. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    maybe that comes down to definition. Which coincidentally is why I think it is good to have some of the civ leaders be female
     
  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    A woman leading a male-dominated society and a female-dominated society are not the same thing. Sadly, women have been second-class citizens throughout most of history; we're moving towards equality but we still have a ways to go. Any female leader who is remembered well had to be twice the leader a man would have been in order to earn the respect of those she governed, which is why it's not difficult to say that women like Elizabeth I, Seondeok of Silla, Tamar of Georgia, or Hatshepsut of Egypt were among their civilizations' greatest rulers regardless of sex. It's unfortunate, but whitewashing history doesn't make it better. (I have no objection to including female leaders--I just think they should be judged on the same metrics as male leaders. And given that, like it or not, history is male dominated, I would prefer to see more male leaders than female--perhaps at a ration of 60/40.)
     
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  20. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    I do not think it is whitewashing. It is just reorientation. I think it is good reorientation because it puts focus on other aspects than just domination. If this game is going for more content than who held the swords it is doing the right thing in being more open to promoting females into leadership that most people may not think of as such. (Therefore I am a big supporter of Catherine de Medici. But we do not have to have that discussion. I have read your objections.)
     
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