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Female leaders

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by liv, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I don't think one can make any relation between gender equality and grammatical gender. Turkish and Mandarin both have no grammatical gender but aren't exactly known for their egalitarian treatment of women; Iroquoian languages do have grammatical gender and were (relatively--an important qualifier) egalitarian, or at least one may say that women had a certain status in their society anyway.
     
  2. GenyaArikado

    GenyaArikado Black Queen

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    post again when you get some reading comprehension
     
  3. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I comprehended just fine. You were complaining that Firaxis chose a "patriarchal" civ, a descriptor which applies to every single civ either already or potentially in game. Patriarchy is part of human history. It's unfortunate, but pretending it didn't happen doesn't make it go away. Besides, there's nothing in particular about the Cree that makes them stand out as exceptionally patriarchal, particularly not compared to Middle Eastern or East Asian civilizations.
     
  4. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Ignore GenyaArikado, he/she who hated on Hatshepsut in a transphobic series of posts a while ago and castigated various non-Caucasian individuals in this forum and in General Discussions.

    Back on topic, do we think the expansion will contain any other female leaders? I was hoping for female Mayan/Iroquois leaders but given Palenque's presence in-game and the presence of the Cree I suspect they will have female leaders for other civs. Maybe Zenobia, Idia, etc. No African civs revealed as yet.
     
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  5. liv

    liv Warlord

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    It has to be at least one more female since Strenger said a female will come and work with the Age system in interesting ways. People thought Isabella or Elizabeth but those are now gone. So the discussion is about Tamar of Georgia and I have suggested perhaps a female from the Italian Renaissance. Not sure what else there is .
    I was hoping for Maya as well but that seems to not be coming. They have revealed 3 Asian leaders (Korea, Mongolia and now India), one European. And we know one North American. I assume one more European at least. If female that could be Maria of Portugal or Tamar of Georgia or Italy.
    I am now hoping for a Middle East Female
     
  6. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Tamar of Georgia is I suppose a possibility. She was associated with a Georgian Golden Age. If she appears in the game I sincerely hope she gets an achievement alluding to the Civ leak and the now meme-worthy joke of "X leader is Tamar of Georgia" (when people couldn't figure out who some of the blurred-out leaders were).

    Another possibility is that they have Palenque in game as a city-state but the other Mayan cities become part of the Mayan civ, and Lady Six Sky interacts with Golden and Dark Ages in an allusion to her calendric rituals and the Mayan calendar at large. But this seems distant as a possibility. Maybe Theodora of Byzantium (who was, after all, co-ruler with Justinian)? She endured reduced loyalty (Nika Riots) and also a Golden Age (Hagia Sophia, the spread of the Byzantine Empire, etc.) Zenobia has little to do with Golden Ages though she had an esteemed court, so I think it can't be her. Nor Boudicaa or other such warrior queens.

    Which Maria of Portugal do you refer to? They had one in Brave New World who was widely reviled (I did, however, like her in-game representation as a somewhat kooky and well-mannered ruler, kind of like a Mrs. Peacock from Clue personified, and with a thrilling reaction to the player declaring war on her).
     
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  7. liv

    liv Warlord

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    Maria One for sure. The trailer had two ships shown in the overseas passage. One may be a reference to the new dutch ship. The other one could mean another naval civ is going to be allowed to be there.

    The quote was about the ages system and not really directly about golden ages. So the female could have an advantages when the switch is about to happen or something else. Hard to say.

    Theodora and fireships. Two of my favourite things about BNW
     
  8. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    I'm not so sure if seeing Palenque in a First Look or early live stream is really a proof that they won't be in the expansion. The builds we've seen might not include all civs or maybe they haven't replaces this CS yet. Or they've shown it to lead us to expect wrong things. It does make Maya more unlikely, but I stopped hoping for them to appear in the next weeks.
    I doubt that a Maya civ would not have Palenque in its list.
    Why? Isn't the 2nd a much more interesting choice? And she lived through interesting times as well, so she might be the teased female leader with the unique interplay with the ages mechanic. And if she meets Pedro...
     
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  9. liv

    liv Warlord

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    Mostly Maria I because she is earlier and Portugal is quickly fading as a major power. And she married her uncle to have 6(I think) children. I mean - that is dedication to her country and to her linage.
     
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  10. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
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  11. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Cool finds. Mochi was the wife of a chief, but was there any indication she was a leader of warriors herself? Lozen (mentioned in the second link) appears to have been more of a leader, and a religious figure.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  12. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Nothing says directly that she was a leader. But they threw her in prison like the male leaders. They didn't just do that to regular warriors, who were usually just relegated to reservations. They must've thought her too much of a threat to allow her to live among her people.
     
  13. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    I see. It seems she was a fierce warrior but not necessarily a leader based on what we have so far (I think it's fairly likely they imprisoned her in part because she was connected to the chief by marriage and there might have been a perception that she could rise up to attack his captors). I prefer Lozen for a female Native American leader since less deduction and inference is needed to conclude she was a leader. Apache have never really appeared in Civ before either, so it might be cool to have them in for that reason too.
     
  14. liv

    liv Warlord

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    This is just such a sad period in their history (whether Cheyenne or Apache). I suppose it is nice to remember the ones who fought and were as dedicated as Mochi or Lozen but I would rather be a leader from a happier time in their history. Even though not leaders in the normal sense I would think these ladies are as good representatives as those used before by civ
     
  15. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Please give examples of female leaders "from a happier time in their history" for consideration.
     
  16. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I do not have any. It is not a part of history or the world I know a lot about. Guess I could read a book or something. A future project.

    I was not saying your suggestions were not good. It is just a period that makes me sad
     
  17. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    A lot of leaders were born in troubled times; in fact most nearly all of the Civ leaders took power amidst a time of strife rather than peace. It's unavoidable, especially since many Native American groups warred with each other before they warred with the US government.
     
  18. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    There are several major issues here. The first is that the happiest part of Native American "history" is actually proto-historical at best. Overall Native American quality of life went downhill dramatically after 1492, if not from direct conflict with Europeans then from the diseases and invasive wildlife they introduced. (On which note, I think most people with a passing knowledge of American history are aware of the devastating impact diseases like cholera and smallpox had on Native Americans, but they may not be aware just how destructive animals like pigs and rabbits were.) The second is that most Native American tribes had very rigid gender roles; some of them allowed women in certain leadership roles (such as the Iroquois, where women weren't chiefs but they did play an important leadership role in determining whether or not the clan would engage in mourning wars) but many did not.

    As an aside, Native Americans adopted many strategies in dealing with European invaders, none of which were really successful in the long run. The Powhatans tried incorporating the Jamestown settlements; the Cherokee and Creek tried appeasement; the Iroquois (probably the most successful of the group) tried remaining neutral while playing the powers against each other (and only really failed when they dropped their neutrality--one wonders what might have happened had they continued their traditional policies); the Cree tried offering their services as middlemen and traders; the Navajo had the good fortune to own land no one else wanted; the Treaty Faction Nez Perce tried selling their land; the anti-Treaty Nez Perce, the Apache, the Shawnee, the Sioux, the Seminoles, and many others tried armed resistance. Another common misconception is that all the Native Americans wanted the European settlers gone. The truth is that many Native American tribes very quickly became dependent on European-made goods like brass and copper pots (the latter of which they actually often disassembled to make ornaments), broadcloth, steel knives and tools, and of course firearms. In fact, over time many Native Americans lost their traditional crafts, making them that much more reliant on European trade goods. Had the Europeans actually left, it would have been a very painful transition for those tribes who had lost generations of knowledge in exchange for goods that might be superior but which they couldn't make themselves.
     
  19. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I think @Guandao has mentioned some native female leaders in this thread that we have not talked about
    One being Queen Alliquippa of the Senaca tribe and another Nonhelema of the Shawnee. Both lived in the 1700s.
    I assume another native nation from North America is possible since we had two in civ5 but likely not this round (although it would be fun if they did that) We have to see what charecteristics they give the Cree
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  20. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Sure, I mentioned some as well. But there are no Queen Elizabeths or Catherine the Greats in (recorded) Native American history; any female Native American leader is going to be less than ideal, IMO. (And I certainly hope we get a second one. With the Cree being a Western tribe, there's some hope I may get my wish for Powhatan. :D )
     
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  21. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I think you should unleash your inner Indian Warrior Princess. The good doctor Bashir would have prescribed it
     
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