Female leaders
- Thread starter liv
- Start date
The Kingmaker
Alexander
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Most well-known Native American women would come across as trite if chosen as leaders. See Sacagawea, Pocahontas, etc.
Alexander's Hetaroi
Deity
Jigonhsasee would like to say hello and form the Iroquois Confederacy.
Unfortunately, her historicity is a lot more suspect than her contemporaries, Hiawatha and Great Peacemaker/Deganawida. She has "mother archetype" written all over her. I'd much rather see Mohawk warchief Joseph Brant lead the Iroquois.
TahamiTsunami
Prince
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I'd personally be happy with either Jigonhsasee or Joseph Brant leading the Iroquois (or even both if the Iroquois are one of those civs that could make use of alt leaders) but I do understand that Jigonhsasee is almost without a doubt the best choice for a female Native American leader of a prominent civ.
Are there a lot of reasons to doubt Jigonhsasee's historicity? Are there a lot of examples of "mother archetypes" in Iroquois history/stories? Just curious about that since simply adding a made-up woman to a historical story seems pretty random to me.
Are there a lot of reasons to doubt Jigonhsasee's historicity? Are there a lot of examples of "mother archetypes" in Iroquois history/stories? Just curious about that since simply adding a made-up woman to a historical story seems pretty random to me.
Cross-culturally, mother-figures are an extremely common element of mythology and folklore. Jigonhsasee may well have been a historical entity just like at least Hiawatha and probably Great Peacemaker (with a lot of embellishment...) were, but both her smaller role in the stories and her archetypal activities makes her definitely reminiscent of other folkloric national mother figures like Dido or Sarah. Again, I'm not saying she couldn't have been a historical person (especially given that a woman in a prominent advisor position would be less unusual in Iroquois culture than, say, Greek), but there is more cause to question her historicity than Hiawatha's. I agree that she's probably one of the better choices for a female Native American leader and I wouldn't be upset by her inclusion; I'd simply prefer a historically attested leader like Brant. Alliquippa would be another female option for the Iroquois. Like Brant, she was a local leader (of the Seneca, in her case), but that's really the best you can do for the Iroquois--the League was led by a council, not individuals.
Also, to comment on "historical story," while the events were probably more or less historical, it's important to remember that the tales of Hiawatha were founding myths. They may not have been as mythicized as the tale of Romulus or Remus or Brutus of Britain, but the mythic elements still have to be taken into account. Dismissing myths out of hand is a bad approach to history, but so is accepting them at face value.
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
For an English course at my first university, I actually drew up a comic with several short stories taking place in historical time periods (Romans, Hittites, Maya, Moche, Nubia, Tang Dynasty China). The Nubian story involved Amanirenas.
liv
Emperor
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Georgia is in. Reason being that they do have a very strong female leader as candidate. If they did not, Georgia as a civ would likely have been overlooked. Same is probably true for the inclusion of Nubia
So my question is (and I will do some looking on my own later) is there any other perhaps overlooked civ/nation that may come in at some point on the basis of having a very strong female leader in their history?
So my question is (and I will do some looking on my own later) is there any other perhaps overlooked civ/nation that may come in at some point on the basis of having a very strong female leader in their history?
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
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Denmark of course. Benin. And both not just because of a female leader. I think including civs just to include a certain leader is a step in the wrong direction. It can certainly be a factor among others.
Hopefully Georgia and Nubia weren‘t just added because of female leader choices. Especially since Amanitore is (like all Kandake, seriously we don‘t even know what exactly that is) a pretty obscure option compared to some male ones (even if you might find different fake Info online).
I think both Georgia and Nubia have a lot more to recommend them than female leaders. Also, Christine of Denmark would be a bizarre leader choice; she did very, very little before she abdicated.
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
Are you referring to Christina of Sweden?
Margarete I, not Christine.
Yes. I knew she ruled one of those post-Viking Scandinavian states...
I see now Siptah was referring to Margaret I. Okay, yes, much better option than Christina.
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
Still, Denmark appeared in Civ5, as a Viking oriented Civ, so it's not completely new to the Civ franchise.
It would, however, feel fresh in my opinion, since leader (and probably bonuses) would be quite different with Norway taking the Viking spot. And she could be depicted aged 50-50 (grey haired, even!) giving us a female leader in that age, finally. Denmark is certainly an often overlooked civ (also in real life despite being very successful), even if it was in civ V.Still, Denmark appeared in Civ5, as a Viking oriented Civ, so it's not completely new to the Civ franchise.
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
I think you're kind of discrediting Tamar by claiming she got in just because of positive discrimination. R&F features a brand-new Golden Age mechanic and her entire legacy is starting a Golden Age by herself.
I'm again reading up on potential female leaders. Yaa Ashantewaa of the Ashanti and Taytu Betul of the Ethiopians caught my eye as very interesting choices. Very interesting historical figures, both deserving of inclusion, in spite of the inevitable backlash it will elicit from ignorant white men.
I'm again reading up on potential female leaders. Yaa Ashantewaa of the Ashanti and Taytu Betul of the Ethiopians caught my eye as very interesting choices. Very interesting historical figures, both deserving of inclusion, in spite of the inevitable backlash it will elicit from ignorant white men.
Thought of another interesting female ruler who unfortunately is difficult to attach to a civ worth including: Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem. I wrote a term paper on her in college, so I'm surprised I didn't think of her. People have been clamoring for the Crusader States...
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka
Thought of another interesting female ruler who unfortunately is difficult to attach to a civ worth including: Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem. I wrote a term paper on her in college, so I'm surprised I didn't think of her. People have been clamoring for the Crusader States...
Would a Crusader Civ cause some sort of controversy?
And their rulers are European, too, so CivSoEuro!