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Female leaders

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by liv, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    He probably would have. :p
     
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  2. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Most well-known Native American women would come across as trite if chosen as leaders. See Sacagawea, Pocahontas, etc.
     
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  3. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Chieftain

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    Jigonhsasee would like to say hello and form the Iroquois Confederacy.
     
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  4. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Unfortunately, her historicity is a lot more suspect than her contemporaries, Hiawatha and Great Peacemaker/Deganawida. She has "mother archetype" written all over her. I'd much rather see Mohawk warchief Joseph Brant lead the Iroquois.
     
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  5. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    I'd personally be happy with either Jigonhsasee or Joseph Brant leading the Iroquois (or even both if the Iroquois are one of those civs that could make use of alt leaders) but I do understand that Jigonhsasee is almost without a doubt the best choice for a female Native American leader of a prominent civ.

    Are there a lot of reasons to doubt Jigonhsasee's historicity? Are there a lot of examples of "mother archetypes" in Iroquois history/stories? Just curious about that since simply adding a made-up woman to a historical story seems pretty random to me.
     
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  6. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Cross-culturally, mother-figures are an extremely common element of mythology and folklore. Jigonhsasee may well have been a historical entity just like at least Hiawatha and probably Great Peacemaker (with a lot of embellishment...) were, but both her smaller role in the stories and her archetypal activities makes her definitely reminiscent of other folkloric national mother figures like Dido or Sarah. Again, I'm not saying she couldn't have been a historical person (especially given that a woman in a prominent advisor position would be less unusual in Iroquois culture than, say, Greek), but there is more cause to question her historicity than Hiawatha's. I agree that she's probably one of the better choices for a female Native American leader and I wouldn't be upset by her inclusion; I'd simply prefer a historically attested leader like Brant. Alliquippa would be another female option for the Iroquois. Like Brant, she was a local leader (of the Seneca, in her case), but that's really the best you can do for the Iroquois--the League was led by a council, not individuals.

    Also, to comment on "historical story," while the events were probably more or less historical, it's important to remember that the tales of Hiawatha were founding myths. They may not have been as mythicized as the tale of Romulus or Remus or Brutus of Britain, but the mythic elements still have to be taken into account. Dismissing myths out of hand is a bad approach to history, but so is accepting them at face value.
     
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  7. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    I officially suggest Amanirenas as a possible alt leader for Nubia. Read up on her here and here

    One-eyed, Two swords-wielding, statue-decapitating badass <3
     
  8. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    For an English course at my first university, I actually drew up a comic with several short stories taking place in historical time periods (Romans, Hittites, Maya, Moche, Nubia, Tang Dynasty China). The Nubian story involved Amanirenas. :D
     
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  9. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    Georgia is in. Reason being that they do have a very strong female leader as candidate. If they did not, Georgia as a civ would likely have been overlooked. Same is probably true for the inclusion of Nubia
    So my question is (and I will do some looking on my own later) is there any other perhaps overlooked civ/nation that may come in at some point on the basis of having a very strong female leader in their history?
     
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  10. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Palmyra? The Mon/Hanthawaddy? Philippines? Illyria?
    I'm not sure the Taino count since we barely known much about Anacaona, but her fate was tragic :cry:.
     
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  11. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Denmark of course. Benin. And both not just because of a female leader. I think including civs just to include a certain leader is a step in the wrong direction. It can certainly be a factor among others.

    Hopefully Georgia and Nubia weren‘t just added because of female leader choices. Especially since Amanitore is (like all Kandake, seriously we don‘t even know what exactly that is) a pretty obscure option compared to some male ones (even if you might find different fake Info online).
     
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  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I think both Georgia and Nubia have a lot more to recommend them than female leaders. Also, Christine of Denmark would be a bizarre leader choice; she did very, very little before she abdicated.
     
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  13. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Are you referring to Christina of Sweden?
     
  14. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Margarete I, not Christine.
     
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  15. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Yes. I knew she ruled one of those post-Viking Scandinavian states... :p I see now Siptah was referring to Margaret I. Okay, yes, much better option than Christina. :p
     
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  16. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Still, Denmark appeared in Civ5, as a Viking oriented Civ, so it's not completely new to the Civ franchise. :p
     
  17. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    It would, however, feel fresh in my opinion, since leader (and probably bonuses) would be quite different with Norway taking the Viking spot. And she could be depicted aged 50-50 (grey haired, even!) giving us a female leader in that age, finally. Denmark is certainly an often overlooked civ (also in real life despite being very successful), even if it was in civ V.
     
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  18. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    I think you're kind of discrediting Tamar by claiming she got in just because of positive discrimination. R&F features a brand-new Golden Age mechanic and her entire legacy is starting a Golden Age by herself.

    I'm again reading up on potential female leaders. Yaa Ashantewaa of the Ashanti and Taytu Betul of the Ethiopians caught my eye as very interesting choices. Very interesting historical figures, both deserving of inclusion, in spite of the inevitable backlash it will elicit from ignorant white men.
     
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  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Thought of another interesting female ruler who unfortunately is difficult to attach to a civ worth including: Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem. I wrote a term paper on her in college, so I'm surprised I didn't think of her. People have been clamoring for the Crusader States... :p
     
  20. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Would a Crusader Civ cause some sort of controversy? :p
    And their rulers are European, too, so CivSoEuro!
     

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