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Female leaders

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by liv, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    In a game featuring Gandhi and CdM, I'm fully expecting Anna Komnene. :mischief: (Actually, I'd take Anna Komnene over either of those, but I'm hoping for her father.)
     
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  2. Prima Italia

    Prima Italia Chieftain

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    I see Byzantium as a counterpart to Rome so a female leader would fit in well and Byzantium has a good number to choose from. I would not mind Theodora returning either.
     
  3. liv

    liv Warlord

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    Well we got only 3 females. statements about diversity made me think think they were adding four. Three is not bad but do not really push any boundaries with that number.
    I am happy with the three . They are ruling interesting civs that I will play. Perhaps Tamar is the weakest.

    So what about expansions or dlcs. Where are we for females
    I am hoping for either Byzantine or an Italian state of some kind for a female.
    The Maya for a female (or another North American tribe)

    We lost the Celts for an area where a female could have been added. No real female possibility for second ruler for Scotland I would think.
     
  4. steveg700

    steveg700 Chieftain

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    Quality should be the issue, not quantity.

    Kinda silly to develop a quota mentality about such things. Firaxis expressed their proclivity for gender diversity. Love or hate the agenda, they executed it with sincerity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  5. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    A one-in-three Female-to-Male is both generous and fair. Not to mention all three new female leaders are worthy choices. So, I see no issues with Firaxis's agenda, the only dicey choice so far has been CdM.
     
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  6. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Arguably Cleo, too. She herself was brilliant, but she presided over one of the most abysmal periods in Egyptian history that ended with the final elimination of independent Egypt.

    Please, no. Theodora's worn out her welcome (and so has Justinian I, for that matter), and it's high time the devs moved on to Medieval Byzantium.
     
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  7. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Frankly I prefer CdM over Cleo--while it's true Cleo was the official ruler of Egypt in her time, CdM held de facto power in at least as much a sense as Gajah Mada did in the Majapahit Empire. Neither leader is uncontroversial, but Cleo is the more tired stereotype of the two. I can only guess they went with Cleo over Hatshepsut due to easier agenda opportunities (sex appeal also). I expect that with Tamar, Seondeok and Amanitore in the mix they will make more interesting female choices in future, even ignoring the sad choice to have only 3 female leaders in this first expansion.
     
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  8. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I sort of take the opposite view. Cleo was a dismal failure, but it wasn't really her fault--she was dealt an awful hand and made the best of it. CdM just sort of failed at everything, despite holding de facto power. She even ended up banished from court, and even when she returned she never regained the influence she formerly possessed.
     
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  9. Prima Italia

    Prima Italia Chieftain

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    I think a female leader for Byzantium is likely and welcome. Theodora was really well done in Civ V and I see no reason why she won't be as good in Civ VI.
     
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  10. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    I think Cleo lost her country and hence was a bad leader, but I sympathize somewhat with the view that she was dealt a bad hand. Her followers though, were lazy and bad at military matters, and she should have known better about the balance of power in Rome when taking Antony in (knowing he was married and acting more discretely would have been a start).

    CdM had several diplomatic successes and she was dealt a similarly bad hand with France riven in two between Catholics and Protestants. To be sure, she didn't always do the dance well, but when she did it well, it was impressive. I don't recall her being banished from court, but even if she was, that doesn't diminish her occasional diplomatic triumph.
     
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  11. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    When it comes to allying with Antony, she was out of options: Octavian hated her guts for her affair with Caesar. As for being discrete, flamboyant disrespect for both the sacred and social mores was kind of Cleopatra's thing. :p Cleopatra was a talented politician: she knew how to manipulate the people with her theatrical "I'm Egyptian, Isis reborn" shtick; she knew how to manipulate men to support her politically and militarily (recall that before Caesar intervened, she was losing the civil war with her brother)...I think in the end she probably added a few years to Egyptian independence, which was doomed long before she took power. I'm not saying I like her: I think she was a horrible choice out of millennia of brilliant rulers. But I do respect that she was cunning, intelligent, and capable--in better times she probably would have come across as blandly competent, but she knew how to turn a dismal defeat into a theatrical production. If you can't win, you can at least go out dramatically. :p

    tl;dr: I don't like CdM or Cleo, but of the two I respect Cleo a little more.
     
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  12. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Well, at least we can agree Cleopatra was iconic (and somewhat of a horrible choice for Egypt's female ruler). :p
     
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  13. liv

    liv Warlord

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    Before forgetting and in case "someone" needed an idea of new kind of female ruler I wanted to add Sayyida al Hurra to the list as a Moroccan leader. Someone brought her up earlier. Pirate, Muslim, North Africa, female. She covers a lot of slots. Would be interesting.
     
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  14. Patine

    Patine Chieftain

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    A de facto Byzantine female leader in a more Medieval timeframe could be Zoe, who has de facto ruler for three or four Emperors, and briefly the official ruler herself. Plus, whatever it actually verifiably was that Greek Fire and her anti-aging oils were made with, she had a reputation as a very skilled alchemist.
     
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  15. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Lol that mention of her being an expert in preventing aging. Is Zoe the one who ruled with her sister, theodora II as co-ruler?
     
  16. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Zoë would be...entertaining, I'll grant her that. If we're going to settle for "sort of" leaders to accommodate a post-Theodora female leader, though, Anna Komnene gets my vote. Granted, she was only almost empress (curse that scheming infant John :p ), but she's definitely a big personality and probably the only historian of note in Byzantine history. She also satisfies my wish for a Komenenos, though I still prefer her father Alexios I.
     
  17. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    What about... Irene of Athens? She was the sole ruler by her own right, and even used the male title "emperor(basilleus)", like Haptshepsut using "Pharaoh".

    Although she was far from being the ideal ruler, she was renounced for her brutality and extraordinary ability in plotting. She butchered (carved out his eyes and let him bleed to death) her only son, the emperor, in order to ascend the throne again. Thats why I credit her more than Anne and Zoe, who had rivalries on the throne. Irene just eliminated everything on her path.

    I think that she can have an unique playstyle in countering disloyalties.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  18. Duckfromstatefarm

    Duckfromstatefarm Chieftain

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    if Morocco gets added to the game she'll be one of the leaders I would want the most, If she isn't Morocco's first leader I do want to her to be the Alt leader for Morocco and yes someone did brought her up earlier.
     
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  19. Horizons

    Horizons King of the Ring

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    I still remember when women were added to games like Civ for their sex appeal. Anyone remember the Cleopatra from Civ3 and Civ4? And the original Lara Croft? Oh my what progress we have made since those dark days :D
     
  20. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Don't forget Joan D'Arc in the game:dunno:. At least CdM was a true political figure.
     
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