FfH2 0.16 Balance Recommendations

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Hmm. The +1 happy per military unit has been in the game for ages now, it was just under the Hereditary Rule civic before. Why didn't anybody attack that civic as overpowered?

Because it was attacked for being underpowered.

HR did nothing but provide happycap management. Except build Royal Guards but no one built them because a) they were sorta weak in that timeframe and b) players often shun building units that vanish when a civic changes. So Royal Guards were almost a litteral non-factor. That left one function for a medium cost civic.

As compared to the same function, now at low cost with the additional functionality of the old Aristocracy civic. Aristocracy can be adopted early in the game, and left in effect for hundreds of turns. So now even the 7STR Royal Guards might be built. (That part is a Good Thing.)

So there's your answer. It is the combination of features and the low cost that is the new issue.

 

[Sureshot]

well garrison happiness has to be somewhere, and it works in aristocracy, neither it nor hereditary rule were very useful alone before, now aristocracy is an actual competitor, and given hereditary rule is similar to aristocracy in definition, combining the two makes sense.

aristocracy should be medium upkeep, and then itd be fine (the old aristocracy wasnt even worth the low upkeep, it traded food for commerce when cottages are much better sources of commerce, so though one person liked it using it in some cases, it was hardly a viable civic for most people).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Ahh, I am missing stuff while typing.

I was going to shut up as per my promise. But since Kael asks for reccomendatons...

The first thought
is just that Aristocracy is pretty darn good just with the -1 Food, +2 Commerce, and the Royal Guards. Especially in light of the RG having the Guardsman promotion. I think if given a week to play it, players might come around to liking the new civic.

Second idea
Is nothing but a crude implementation of Nikis-Kight's idea to limit the happycap effect to just a few units.

Viceroy (national unit)
STR 4 (5?)
Move 1
Channelling II
Sorcery
Spirit II
Law II (originally Mind II, but I think that's a bit much)
Guardsman promotion?
Access to City Defender promotions.
Requires Aristocracy

This unit is a free and +4 to the city the viceroy inhabits. Plus it is a decent garrison unit on its own.
Optional would be to double the effect if based in a city with Palace, Forbidden Palace, Winter Palace? Programmable?

Idea #3
Diplomatic angle, inspired by the incestuous and inbred European royal families. Aristocracy gives a moderate diplomatic bonus with civilizations that also operate as Aristocracies. "We associate with only the very best people, you see."

Concept Another
Haughty aristocrats like nothing more than out-lavishing the Lord next door. 'Keeping up with the Woorstergloughhamshire-Smythes'. So Aristocracy allows one extra Bard specialist per city.

Or
Just +10% Culture?

Sorry for the rather unispired ideas. IMO, it don't need much. Sexy it up some is enuf.

 

[Kael]

I kinda wish I had an easy ability to apply a blanket -2 happiness to all cities, then grant the +1 happy per military unit. Though I would put that on Military State.

Yeah, I like Nikis's idea a lot too. But Im not adding new objects in 0.16 (it would break saves).

 

[Xanikk999]

I think twisted spire should give 2 commerce per religious building as its counterpart does in warlords.

in warlords they beefed up the spiral minaret.

Did anyone see this? It was on the last page.

 

[Kael]

Did anyone see this? It was on the last page.

Yeah, Firaxis did that so religion would play a more important role in the game. Specifically so players pushing a religious strategy would have a bigger advantage. I don't have those concerns in FfH where I think the religions are already benifical enough.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I kinda wish I had an easy ability to apply a blanket -2 happiness to all cities, then grant the +1 happy per military unit. Though I would put that on Military State.

Yeah, I like Nikis's idea a lot too. But Im not adding new objects in 0.16 (it would break saves).

A much cruder implemtation would be to simply give royal guards the ability to cast hope.

 

[Grey Fox]

I think putting the Advantages of Aristocracy into the royal guard instead of the + from garrisons is the right direction!

What does hope do now again?

 

[Sureshot]

the current implementation is used well by the AI, won't someone think about the AI's?!?!

 

[Kael]

I think putting the Advantages of Aristocracy into the royal guard instead of the + from garrisons is the right direction!

What does hope do now again?

+1 Happy, +4 Culture.

Its definitly easy enough to give Royal Guards the ability to cast hope.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

+1 Happy, +4 Culture.

Its definitly easy enough to give Royal Guards the ability to cast hope.

I was going to edit my original suggestion to this very thing. Just give them Hope (and perhaps Valor?) and you've got a pretty nifty unit that can be built darn early in the game. Instead of just a bunch of elite soldiers we've noww got a bunch of elite soldiers led by a Prince of the realm. They fight, they administer cities.

Plus this attractive unit in turn prodives the player with incentive to round up Horses.

Sureshot's questionis good ... does the AI know to cast Hope?

 

[Grey Fox]

Royal vampire guards, muhahaha.

 

[Kael]

I was going to edit my original suggestion to this very thing. Just give them Hope (and perhaps Valor?) and you've got a pretty nifty unit that can be built darn early in the game. Instead of just a bunch of elite soldiers we've noww got a bunch of elite soldiers led by a Prince of the realm. They fight, they administer cities.

Plus this attractive unit in turn prodives the player with incentive to round up Horses.

Sureshot's questionis good ... does the AI know to cast Hope?

Yeah, the AI casts Hope just fine. As always it could probably be more efficient about it, but it uses it.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Yeah, the AI casts Hope just fine. As always it could probably be more efficient about it, but it uses it.

Then I think we have a winner!

I hope my new puppy I pick up tonight will be a winner too. nono: Shamless off-topic hyjack. Bad Unser!)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Royal vampire guards, muhahaha.

Definitely stylish.

 

[Sureshot]

the winner is +1 happiness if they build a specific unit and cast a spell? thats a good replacement for happiness for garrisons?

ya, i completely disagree lol

happiness for garrisons isn't uber, its a normal civic in vanilla, and on its own it wasnt nearly as good as godking. it needs to be in, and the best place is aristocracy (could put it back on military state, but aristocracy needs it a lot more than military state).

 

[BCalchet]

I say aristocracy, as in 1.6a, is completely and utterly overpowered if you happen to use farms and agriculture.

Not only do you get obscene amounts of food, but the removal of the happycap lets your cities grow as they like - and the extra commerce from farms acts to offset the military support costs, more or less.

Sure, if you avoid farms and only use it for the happy, it's fine, but still...
If anywhere, I'd like to see the +1 happy / unit appearing at Military Discipline over in the Education cathegory - that one feels weak right now, and it does make sense.

 

[Sureshot]

hmm.. ive been having trouble maintaining large armies when i go the farm route, can only get a bit city if i dont expand until much later because the unit costs cripple the economy.

 

[MrUnderhill]

EDIT: Never mind. Fast board.

Spoiler :

I say aristocracy, as in 1.6a, is completely and utterly overpowered if you happen to use farms and agriculture.

Not only do you get obscene amounts of food, but the removal of the happycap lets your cities grow as they like - and the extra commerce from farms acts to offset the military support costs, more or less.

Sure, if you avoid farms and only use it for the happy, it's fine, but still...
If anywhere, I'd like to see the +1 happy / unit appearing at Military Discipline over in the Education cathegory - that one feels weak right now, and it does make sense.

I agree 100%. The extra population can easily be redirected towards Priests, Bards, Merchants (w/ Liberty, Guilds, Religious Discipline, etc), Vampire XP, or even straight production if you follow Octopus Overlords or the Ashen Veil (Sacrifice the Weak can pop-rush, IIRC).

I understand that specialists should be useful, even important, but having 8+ priests in one city with room to grow? That's too much.

 

[naf4ever]

Perhaps for Aristocracy and the happy bonus you can do what was remeniscent of Civ3 or maybe civ 2? Where there is a limit on how many troops you can use to suppress people. So maybe city states might let you gain a maximum of 1 additional happy for a military unit being present while aristocracy gives up to 4 if 4 units are present. Then maybe you can mix and match stuff so military discipline might give 1 also, etc.. This would also be a neat way to tweak some other civics.

Oh and I still think scholarship should give a bonus xp or bonus xp gain rate to arcane units.