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FfH2 0.16 Balance Recommendations

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Oct 13, 2006.

  1. MrUnderhill

    MrUnderhill Civ-loving Hobbit

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    I know it's wrong to compare Civ with real life (especially FfH), but I read somewhere that during the middle ages, there were usually about 5-10 farmers for every urban specialist. There was no such thing as small cities with lots of specialists, since there wasn't enough food to go around.

    In vanilla civ and FfH0.15, the usual ratio was about 3:1 (2:1 in optimum conditions), which is fine since you can't transport food from one city to another and any smaller of a ratio would render specialists useless. But with 0.16 the balance is now 1:2 or more. It's now possible to have more specialists than normal workers, and I don't care if it's fantasy; that's not realistic or balanced.

    If we want specialists to be more useful, then perhaps we should make each specialist worth more instead of letting the player dogpile them (gradual improvement over exponential improvement). If we don't want cottages to overpower everything, we should address them directly or revamp the other improvements to catch up. Just focusing on farms is only making more problems than it fixes.
     
  2. Silverkiss

    Silverkiss NekoChan

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    On fantasy setting you usually have that: small cities with lots of specialists, lots masters.
     
  3. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

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    I disagree, the agriculture change now makes this line more balanced i think. The 2 food is great but in return it gimps you the one resource that is the hardest to make up for in this mod, production. Also cottages are far from obsolete. In my mind they are still superior to farms.You cant beat 6 commerce for a fully developed town tile along a river.

    I dont think there will be a problem with GP farm abuse. Great people point have diminishing returns and really, great people arent all that. Also with the unhappy modifier for foreign trade gone this line of civics now allows people a more diverse playng style later in the game.
     
  4. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

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    Military state does this? It doesnt say this on the civics screen. Im looking at it right now and i dont see anything about this. Am i missing something.

    EDIT: Examining the XML shows that no civic in 2.16 give the +1 happy/military unit. Interesting.
     
  5. MrUnderhill

    MrUnderhill Civ-loving Hobbit

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    *sigh* I guess I'll have to playtest some more to see if my findings were right.

    I'll be back later with the results.
     
  6. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    No but that was the suggestion from the guy that looked over the civics.
     
  7. Xanikk999

    Xanikk999 History junkie

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    I just get the feeling that agriculture is overpowered. But id hate to see it get nerfed at the same time. :crazyeye:
     
  8. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

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    The changes really mix stuff up, i like that, heres some thoughts on the civic changes:

    1. Aristocracy still seems kind of lacking. Ya I guess its better now with agriculture but the fact remains the premise behind it is still inferior. If someone wants tiles with low food and high commerce cottages are still the way to go because they give more commerce and you can still get the bonuses from any other gov civic you want. Also a gov civic working properly shouldnt be dependent on another civic.

    2. Basic care and fend for themselves seem kind of redundant. I dont know any scenario where I would choose fend for themselves over basic care. The upkeep difference is negligible. one should probably be removed and turned into something more unique, though no ideas come up at the moment.

    3. Scholarship has an extremly high upkeep and isnt that great if you dont have a lot of specialists. To make it a bit more intersting why dont you have this civic give a bonus +xp to arcane units. Makes sense and it would serve as a magic-based civic for those using lots of arcane units.

    4. Nice job on having no civic give +happy/military unit. At first i thought this would be a problem. But I notice through the new religeon civic and such you can still get a lot of happiness, you just have to utilize your civics and other tools more. I cant tell yet if this will be a problem later when you go super-war-mongering but i like it so far.

    5. Slavery +1 hammer bonus to quarries isnt too effective. Im glad they are seeing some sort of bonus to thier economy when not at war but this is so minimal it might as well not be there. Even in a large empire sometimes you wont have more than 1 or 2 quarries. I suggest increasing this to +3 to make it worth it. Quarries are so rare i doubt this would imbalance things.

    6. The population sacrafice ability of Slavery and sacrafice the weak is still set at its base of 30 hammers per pop like in vanilla civ right? This needs to be increased. Everything costs considerably more in FFH and this ability is so painfully weak right now. You could double this and not see any problems due to the fact that you lose people every time you use this ability, hence its not possible to spam or abuse it and you cant sac more than half your pop at one time anyway.

    7. Sacrafice the weak really has a -3 health modifier which is too much i believe. -2 from the civic itself and the loss of +1 you give up from not using protect the meek not to mention the happy bonuses you miss out on which are more critical now since there is no hereditary rule. the new research bonus is nice but -3 is a bit harsh dont you think especially since this civic or the viel arent exactly game altering. Perhaps the base civic penalty for this should only be -1.

    So just these are just some things i wanted to mention. Overall i like the new changes. The city states are more usable now but with a negative to balance them out which is good and life without the +1 happy/unit from monarchy forces us to try new strategies and civics we didnt before. And i like how the focus is being put on specialists such as with the forge hammer bonus reduction.
     
  9. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

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    I actually hardly use it but its better now because it has a purpose end game. Now its not just an automatic switch to foreign trade for everyone. Agriculture is now viable as an alternative strategy later on. And the production bonus actually really hurts since it still gives -1 hammers even on tiles with no production to start with, so it basically takes away production from other tiles with hammers.
     
  10. rjjb

    rjjb Chieftain

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    The dirge is nuts.. it started near my capital, so I started building a warrior. I just got one built and started working on another when skeleton's walked into my city. Shortest game I've ever had, and no way to have sped up production of warriors or researched a more comparable unit.

    The more powerful animals are a good thing.. this early super dirge of godlyness, however, needs some tweaking if not a complete rethink, imo.

    Nothing quite like losing within the first couple dozen turns and not being able to do anything about it.. I was looking forward to seeing the changes in .16, and was welcomed by the dirge in my first game. I had niceish tiles too, damn it.

    Grr, I say.. Grr.. arg.., even. :sad:
     
  11. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    You can always load the initial autosave, to restart with the same map, and the SD will (probably) spawn somewhere else.
     
  12. rjjb

    rjjb Chieftain

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    That's not the point.

    There's a reason why animals don't enter cultural borders/attack cities and why the barbarian warriors and such don't spawn until much later in civ4.

    If I set the game to allow x number of civs to play, I don't want one or more of those civs wiped out by an overpowered unit that they had no chance to defend against. This includes my civ; I do actually want to be able to play the game I start, not watch a dirge wipe me out before I even get past the startup phase.

    I realize the dirge isn't going to wipe out cities every time, and it may even be the rare occurrence.. but it shouldn't never happen, imo. That it happened in my first game suggests that I'm either really really unlucky or it's going to happen again and again.. which to that, I still say grr.. arg..!

    (And yes, I know I need a tissue.. :p)

    Edit: I do like the idea behind the dirge, btw.. it just needs to come at a time when it can be defended against. And that doesn't mean turn 15... :p
     
  13. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    Oh, yeah, I didn't mean it was perfect as is, just that since you seemed to be upset particualarly about that game set-up, that you could return to it if you want.
     
  14. rjjb

    rjjb Chieftain

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    Nah.. the good tiles were an afterthought; I usually get crap and always play it out. It's just added grr.. hehe
     
  15. Shadowsong0

    Shadowsong0 Chieftain

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    I can SO second that... :rolleyes:



    Dirge WILL crush one civ or another every game. Only time it does not, you are "lucky" enough to have a barbarian city as its primary target. The dirge just enters and spawns skellies for free but at least they are not spawned near a capital during the first 15 turns.

    If Kael wants this thing to show up early it should at LEAST wait until the barb civ got fishing (or better even sailing). Dirge might need a little push by then (like +2 strength and 1 extra cargo).

    Another problem is that the dirge does not switch targets often. In the early game there are maybe one to three cities with ocean access, so it will most probably stay for the first 200-300 turns near the first city it targets. I had it staying near my capital for 324 turns till enough other civs had build cities near the coast to make it switch.

    Naturally it wiped out the Lanun capital three turns later...

    I may mention i just got lucky to have found 2 villages which gave me warriors by turn 15. By turn 19 i faced the skellies with 3 warriors fortified on a hill in a city and was lucky enough to have 2 survive the onslaught. With the first few promotions going into +20% str and +40% against melee i did not loose a single warrior after that.

    So it is possible to survive for a player by being extremely lucky OR avoiding the coast altogether concerning capitals. But the AI is neither lucky nor clever. I had given up playing with raging barbarians because of the AI civs not being able to handle it on large maps just to have the next few games ruined by the dirge.

    Maybe i should roll back to 15k until i can figure out how to fix these issues for my game. :sad:
     
  16. Bad Player

    Bad Player Deity

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    I like that suggestion! Maybe Sacrifice the Weak could be made so that it works well with a certain playstyle (e.g. some kind of playstyle that Calabim use).
     
  17. MrUnderhill

    MrUnderhill Civ-loving Hobbit

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    Definitely Sailing. I was playing as the Calabim just now and I watched as the Malakim fell prey to (presumably) the Dirge within the first 10 turns. I tried to be clever and put my capital inland, where I'd have a few turns of respite should the Dirge show up.

    When Acheron showed up on my continent (about 8-10 tiles from my capital, in fact), I sent a hunter to investigate. Lo and behold, the Dirge had actually DOCKED in Acheron's city and was unloading skeletons to back up his usual orcs. Needless to say, I spent the next 65% of the game defending myself and fell way behind the other civs I ended up meeting. The Dirge is still there, even as I shell the heck out of the city and plan to make my final assault. Is this behavior intentional or was I just really unlucky?
     
  18. xanaqui42

    xanaqui42 King

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    Barrows can generate a skeleton on turn 2, but there's no guarantee either way. See Barrow on the wiki for detail
     
  19. Endovior

    Endovior Prince

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    I just saw a Panther near my Capital. I think that it's the first time I've ever seen a Panther, anywhere, ever.

    Now, unless they're a new addition for 0.16 (in which case, w00t!), they probably need a frequency boost.
     
  20. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    popped a warrior from a goody hut? wow i cant remember the last time that happened for me heh

    i play deity and immortal and you start to realize the only way to survive is to always have a standing army. the typical vanilla strategy seems to be:
    1. don't build an army
    2. pump out settlers quickly
    3. put your settlers on most of the land so you get an unnatural advantage
    4. pray that no one attacks you so you can outresearch the "dumb" ais who actually built armies
    4. later down the line, kill them with your uber teched units

    that doesnt work here, you need to fight for expansion, you need to fight just for survival.. but its a dark fantasy mod, its about people that have had to survive worse (ice ages arent exactly a walk in the park), so thats how it should be.

    the difficultly of the barbs isnt bad, but the ais definately need a boost, they dont make nearly enough units to deal with the threats (same as most people who are more used to vanilla), and they dont know how to protect their highly promoted units.
     

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