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FfH2 0.16 Balance Recommendations

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Oct 13, 2006.

  1. DREWid

    DREWid Chieftain

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    errr ... is this a balance thing thats been removed or a bug... dunno which is why ill plump for here...

    playing lan multiplayer games (3 of em under 1.6) and there doesnt seem to be a culture bonus in other cities that have your state religion. its my understanding that all other cities (apart from the religious capital) should gain 1 culture a turn if they have your state religion.

    as i said in 3 games this aint happened.

    oh and an also in 1 game flauros had a hidden nationality animal stood next to a ashen ritualist of mine... i cast ring of flames against the barb city also next to me... which obviously hit the lion... and it was a war trigger... why?
     
  2. Endovior

    Endovior Prince

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    Oh, definitely. I'm playing on Noble with Raging Barbs, and the simple fact is: early game, you need an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of two Warriors per city (one to sit around being fortified in town, and one to guard your borders). If at all possible, you'll also have a few more Warriors/Hunters roaming around your borders or just outside ambushing Barbs on strategic terrain. Don't even think about expanding until you've got Hunters, who can spy out the terrain; pushing back the fog of war to get you some breathing room. (Of course, if you managed to squeeze in a second city before the first wave, more power to you)
     
  3. SchpailsMan

    SchpailsMan Warlord

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    DREWid> not all religions contribute culture. Runes give +1 gold and the Veil gives +1 science instead.


    I'm a bit sceptical about the "GP Farm abuse" thing that was mentionned above. GP Farms usually consist in a single city in a whole empire spammed with farms, I believe the danger for abuse comes from the fact that farms have been up'ed a lot in 0.16 so that it might be a viable strategy to spam them all around to support a lot of specialists in a lot of cities and get a lot a viable GP Farms (even considering that the GP Threshold raises for the whole civ every time a GP is born). I think highliting the issue is good, but it seems way too early to talk about it being overpowered. I guess it will mainly benefit to philo and exansive leaders, pop-rushing and the Calabim. I'm not sure financial leaders won't prefer the old cottage economy to specialist economy even though aristocracy allows to take advantage of the fin trait because specialists don't benefit from it. I'm not drawing conclusions here, just thinking aloud, sorry for the noise :D My point is rather that a lot of playtesting seems to be required here, and it might be that farms are well as is but some other elements (ex: the philo trait) should be toned down a bit instead.


    Another issue, I don't think this has been reported before :

    Triremes currently require copper, iron or mithril won't do. I'm actually fine with this: in my current game I'm playing lalun so I teched towards Bronze to try playing early Sirian Doctrine rushes (triremes + amphibious swordmen), but I couldn't find copper on my half of the continent (there were only two sources on the whole continent, both in Armurite land). I considered rushing to Iron but then I realized that triremes really require copper so I gave up and had to set back the old tried-and-true Saverous & Drowns rush. I really don't mind changing gears when the land doesnt fit, but I'm not sure the hard requirement for Bronze was really the intent here.
     
  4. drekmonger

    drekmonger Chieftain

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    Hellfire is a neat mechanic with a lackluster effect. I went for getting Hellfire ritual up ASAP along with some Inquisitors to play with the spell. I really like the tile effect it produces, and the casting animation.

    Problem is, as far as I've seen, the demons are spawning infrequently and they are total chumps. Hellfire amounted to occasional free XP for the AI civs.

    I wanted to go for a two city build, so I was Blighting up areas that I wasn't planning on using. The AI workers quickly reversed this effort. Personally, I think "fallout" scrubbing should be limited to 2nd or 3rd divine units.
     
  5. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Panthers have always been around, and as in vanilla, their native terrain is Jungle. So if you've played many games with little jungle you might not have noticed them alot.
     
  6. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

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    I wish to register a Devil's Advocate objection to the +1 :) / military unit added to Aristocracy in Patch a.

    I don't think the civic is in need of enhancement, as I found it perfectly viable in certain situations in 0.14 and 0.15. Players who displike this civic never seem to list among its benefits its low upkeep cost. As-modified in Patch a, it seem like that low cost can no longer be justified. The civic has not been tweaked, it has been re-invented.

    Sometimes a low upkeep cost is the most attractive feature in a civics category. If your capitol city does not happen to be a strong hammer producer, then Aristocracy was always a strong choice. If your civ is mature, and city growth is slow, Aristocracy was already a strong choice. If you have been successful in war, Aristocracy is often a strong choice - at least until you can convert all them AI Farms to your Cottages.

    There seems to be some sort of assumption that you have to erect a lot of Farms to use Aristocracy. But that's not that case. Going to Aristocracy does not affect a Cottage-based economy. Cottage tiles still produce the same food. Cottage tiles still produce the same amount of commerce. A shift to Aristocracy often results in a major boost to commerce thanks to a few extra coins from Farms, but mostly due to Civics upkeep savings.

    Yes, droppin God King means hammer production in the capitol city will go down. So too will gold production, but science production is not affected. So if you are runing 80%-100% R&D is it really worth it to get 6-8 extra hammers in one city - when instead you could get an extra 60 gold; maybe bop that 80% R&D up to 90%?

    Aristocracy was indeed quite useful as a mid-game/situational civic, but you have to be able to read the tea leaves. Now in 0.16a I fear it has become some sort of uber end-game civic and at low upkeep cost to boot. Not every civic need be end-game powerful in order to be useful.

    Furthermore, I'd like to second the observation (made by naf4ever?) that the game plays quite well without any +:) effect from garrison units at all. There are many more ways to get +:) in FfH than in vanilla. I've not used the garrsison method of happycap management since, literally, my very first game of FfH Ver II.

    I'd say FfH probably does not need the garrison happiness effect at all. And I''m definitely sure the Aristocracy civic does not need it. Moreover this addition puts Aristocracy at risk of a future cost raise. And that would be detrimental to the civic.

    So gripeth the Devil's Advocate. :satan:
     
  7. Maniac

    Maniac Apolyton Sage

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    City States is/was a better low upkeep civic.

    Thus spoketh the vast majority's advocate. :cool:
     
  8. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    ya, and the garrison happiness is good, military based civs need it.
     
  9. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

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    City State is a superior civic for a mature civilization? Because why?

    The vast majority is often wrong. ;)
     
  10. Bad Player

    Bad Player Deity

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    For a new city 1 culture is far more valuable than 1 science. Perhaps the AV as state religion should give +2 science?
     
  11. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    new cities arent usually the first ones getting religions
     
  12. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

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    This is not at all true in my experience. I used garrisons for happiness in exactly one game, and that was my first game ever of ver II. If it is possible to be successful without this mechanism, it is an overstatement to characterize it as a "need".

    Even if the +:)/garrison unit mechanism is included in FfH, there is no reason it has to exist in Aristocracy. Adding this mechaism to Aristocracy will eventually lead to raising the civic costs, because now the civic simply delivers too much benefit for its low cost. That is that patch I don't want to see. I am trying to influence tomorrow's patch by objecting today.

    =============PostScript============

    Version 0.15

    Aristocracy
    Low upkeep
    -1 Food from Farms
    +2 Commerce for Farms


    Hereditary Rule
    Medium upkeep
    Can built Royal Guards units
    +1 :) per unit in the city


    Version 0.16a

    Aristoacracy
    Low upkeep
    -1 Food from Farms
    +2 Commerce for Farms
    Can built Royal Guards units
    +1 :) per unit in the city


    In other words Aristocracy is 0.16a is exactly equal to the old Aristocracy combined with the old Herditary Rule. But Hereditary Rule alone cost Medium upkeep in 0.15. Now it does the duty of a medium upkeep civic and a low upkeep civic? But the cost remains at low? That situation won't last long.

    It won't take long for the posts to appear in the balance section ... "Aristocracy is too powerful. It's cost needs to go up to High ... definitely at least to Medium." And then pfft ... a nice little subtle tool is turned into a just another high-priced, super-powered jackhammer. There is, IMO, something to be said for subtlety of design, too.
     
  13. Shadowsong0

    Shadowsong0 Chieftain

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    Nope the Barbs are great, i really enjoy putting my units to actual use for the first time. Problem is, even you, dear Sureshot, will have not more than one warrior to defend against the dirge`s skellies on turn 19 without goody huts. Problem two is some of us LIKE to play with around 10 civs on a huge map even if it means we won`t get every religion and writing ...

    ATM i'm trying to fix this by adding a homeguard unit, which is essential a warrior with 3 str, promoted +20% str and +40% melee, movement 0, national unit, one time buildable, not upgradable and cheaper than warrior so AI will have it ready by turn 10. Problem atm is AI promotes it with +1 Movement after the first attack and moves it out of the city as it is their most advanced unit by then :mad:
    But i'm sure i can figure out how to restrict promotions, too, given time *sigh*
    Maybe putting the dirge some years back would be easier but i've got no idea how to do it, just starting get a grip of this modding thing...
     
  14. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

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  15. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    It will be in the editor if you download the "a" patch.
    Global defines, line 29, column c, change to what every you want in turns, hit export, must have macros enables, viola!
     
  16. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    i had the dirge next to me in my most recent marathon deity game, and my capital was a coastal city.

    i was able to get my second warrior out before they attacked me, their skelettes weren't much of a threat, you can just sit in your city since they can't pillage.

    so yes, dear me can get a second warrior out before they attack, and they were nothing to worry about for me. the amurites and their hunter spam was the only real difficulty (i hate hunters, they come too soon and if you dont go that route too you're screwed)
     
  17. Silverkiss

    Silverkiss NekoChan

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    There is a promotion alredy in the mod, Immobile or something, that gives -998 movement points.
     
  18. Frozen-Vomit

    Frozen-Vomit Prince

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    Don't divine casters get a free promotion when upgrading like arcane ones do? I just realised that inquisitors don't get any - kind of disapointing as I wanted to get to t3 divine spells quicklier then waiting for another 9xp.
     
  19. BCalchet

    BCalchet Human, all too human.

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    Inquisitors trade their free promotion for command and the ability to remove religions.

    You want High Priests for your free promotion-getting pure caster units.
     
  20. Ennet

    Ennet Chieftain

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    Not when 3 skellies land next to your capital on turn 16 =) And yes they did, I was wiped out on turn 26 & 17 respectivetly in my last two games. Playing as Lanun on a watermap having to go and secure an inland location to be able to surive to turn 30 would be riddiculous. :) Np for thoughtness, as long as there is a reasonably possibility to defend yourself.
     

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