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FfH2 0.16 Balance Recommendations

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Oct 13, 2006.

  1. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    On deity the player doesnt get any bonuses versus the barbarians like on all other difficulty levels.
     
  2. eerr

    eerr Emperor

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    oops- my bad
     
  3. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

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    This is exactly the sort of "raise-the-cost-of-Aristocracy" postings I knew were bound to occur. The uber civic in 0.15 was God King. Now it's Aristocracy. Make Aristocracy High upkeep and it will still be uber compared to God King, because why? Because GK is also High upkeep. All those extra :) faces will be trivial to obtain, because why? Because of the battalion of Adepts and Priests players typically build and let sit to train. Each Adept is also a :) wherever you need it.

    Nikis-Knight's idea to give a few specific units the happycap ability under Aristocracy is outstanding. Limited and flavorful. :clap: Limitless happycap boosts by just any old unit is simply too much.

    [DISCLAIMER: Unless the idiot AI needs it to function.]
     
  4. Teg_Navanis

    Teg_Navanis King

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    After seven combats, he already had Combat III and reached 98% combat odds against a hunter (both being at full health). A while later, his combat odds against hunters were at 99.9%...
     
  5. Endovior

    Endovior Prince

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    People complaining about things being broken: please state the difficulty level you are playing on. Thank you.

    That being said, something that IS broken... Hyborem.

    Hyborem is available to the Infernals from the start of the game, like Basium. Hyborem is a Hero, like Basium. Hyborem costs the same amount of hammers as Basium. Hyborem has 12 Strength, unlike Basium.

    Let me repeat that.

    Hyborem, a hero available from the start of the game, has 12 STRENGTH!

    I discovered this while playing Infernals... and promptly proceeded to use him to singlehandedly win the game (Prince difficulty). No other unit fought another civ at any point (although Rosier got involved vs the Barbs after Hyborem killed Orthus, ending Barb-peace).

    I don't want to consider the effects of an AI Hyborem...
     
  6. BCalchet

    BCalchet Human, all too human.

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    Hyborem is not, and I repeat, not, meant for player use. He is permanently stuck in the AI infernal's capital, and keeps the infernal from being wiped out early.

    That's all.
     
  7. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    i wonder if giants aren't considered animals anymore.. ive never had problems killing those giants with hunters before.
     
  8. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    They are still animals. I really dont see a huge balance problem here. Just that the promotion system in FfH is so powerful and hidden nationality units are so able to go grab xp.

    I was thinking abotu just increasing the build cost of Pact of the Nilhorn from 300 to 500. I can never keep my giants alive but I usually come upon the pact later on. Im thinking putting it at 500 will still make it worthwile if rushed but not game breaking.
     
  9. Frozen-Vomit

    Frozen-Vomit Prince

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    Maybe the three giants shouldn't start with hidden nationality. Any player can look find out who build the pact, just the AI can't - giving it another disadvantage.

    Also a -x diplomacy modifier "you use bloody giants" :) would be ok as long one of the three is alive.
     
  10. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    id prefer they kept the hidden nationality and had the negative diplomodifier, something like "you are allied with the bloody giants"... use would make the hidden nationality untrue, but sayin theyre allied with them makes it like you dont control the giants, but you support them :p
     
  11. SchpailsMan

    SchpailsMan Warlord

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    Btw, considering that "anonymous" giants have hidden nationality woudn't it be better to remove the default names for the PoN giants ? The way it is now, human players can tell which giants are civ-controlled and which ones are random animals just by mouse-over-ing the giant. I guess the AI simply can't do that since there's little chance it will actively check the names of all giants it encouters.
     
  12. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    normal giants cant enter borders anyways so naming them doesnt do much.. though maybe all the giants could have a unique name list? would make them more fun in general
     
  13. retro V

    retro V Prince

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    Obvious additions to said list could be:

    Oliver (Hardy)
    Stanley (Laurel)
    Groucho (Marx)
    Harpo (Marx)
    Buster (Keaton)
    Charlie (Chaplin)
    Norman (Wisdom)
    George (Formby)

    (Surnames added in case one of two of them were a bit obscure).
     
  14. Xanikk999

    Xanikk999 History junkie

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    Some AI civs should be banned from using certain religions.

    It doesnt make sense for the Infernal to adopt the order and become good.

    Just like it doesnt make sense for basium to become evil and adopt the ashen viel.
     
  15. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    I wouldn't call that a balance recommendation. Plus, have you ever seen Basium or Hyborem convert in any games that you've personally played? In one of my games, the Infernals had almost a dozen cities. I spread the Order to all of them, and I'm fairly certain that he had no other religions. He still wouldn't adopt the Order.

    That said, I think awarding disciples for discovering the religious founding techs might help this issue with the slightly less polarized Civs. That way, Hyborem would always bee-line for Corruption of Spirit and Basium would always go for Orders from Heaven. Or maybe they wouldn't- I don't know. In any case, I think the Bannor and Sheaim would bee-line anyway.
     
  16. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    I'd like to see the effects given to temples under the Religion civic be a little more flavorful. A +1 :) for each temple is pretty powerful, sure, but there are plenty of happy faces from religion already. How does this sound?

    Religion
    +1 :) in cities with state :religion:
    +2 :science: from sage with Temple of the Veil
    +1 :culture: from bard with Temple of the Overlords
    +1 :) with Temple of Leaves (not sure what would else would fit...)
    +1 :hammers: from engineer and +1 :gold: from merchant with Temple of Kilmorph
    +1 :hammers: and +1 :gold: from priest with Temple of the Order

    Not all the bonuses are equal, but I see Religion as more of a peacetime civic anyway, and some religions are more war-oriented than others.
     
  17. DieselBiscuit

    DieselBiscuit Shoggoth tickler

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    I agree that boni other than happy faces are appropriate but adding them to specialists are possibly game breaking in combination with civics that allow no limits in those specialists (Yes, priesthood and scholarship, I am looking at YOU). Imagine what insane amounts of production a size 47 Kuriotate city with Temple of the Order could have under priesthood and then consider they might've built the Prophecy too.

    Maybe you could add the boni to the temple itself instead, so that players cannot multiply the effect, like +2 :science: to a Veil temple in addition to the +2 they already have?

    Bottom line is that happycaps are now too easily heightened and the civics mainly responsible for that are Aristocracy and Religion. As I usually get at least 2 different religions in my empire that's an easy +4 :) with the right resources in addition to the intrinsic +2. That's a bit much, in my opinion.

    Additionally, hidden nationality is way overpowered against the AI, who will helplessly flail against the Terrible Trio (you know who) and exhaust their empires army on attacking them on hills while you amass fast troops on their doorstep. I'm all for some kind of diplomatic penalty and here's another suggestion: Give non-barbarian giants a chance to lose their hidden nationality each round, representing their ineptness in subterfuge. "The giants attacking our city was swearing at us in the language of the Bannor, my lord! They were calling us vertically challenged and worse." A giant losing its hidden nationality inside another civs borders may trigger war if appropriate. Just a thought.
     
  18. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    No worse than an overflowing dwarven vault combined with lots of farms and/or mines. Three turn wonders and such.

    Yeah, but that's so bland. I was originally going to go with that, but blandness is not looked upon kindly by the Team.

    That's exactly one of the main points in my platform. Base happicap of 6, +1 or 2 for breweries, +1 Festivals, and +3 for Sanitation. 11 :) is a bit higher than the vanilla happicap at an equivalent stage of the game, but it works out alright. However, +1 for state religion, +1 for Religion civic, +1 for temple with Religion civic, +1 for temple resource, +2 for Religious Discipline civic. 17 :) with Priesthood, Sanitation, and Festivals is ridiculous. And that's without a single luxury resource, mind you. Decrease the happiness from religion, and weave the tech tree a bit so that you have to go through some beakers to get to the :) techs while you're at it. That's what I'd suggest.

    To be fair, the AI doesn't defend much better against other world units. There are plenty of Terrible Trios out there. Chalid Valin Sphener. Barnaxus Bambur Arthendain. Baron Mary Trojan Horse. The extra hills defense might be a bit over the top, but otherwise hunters tear those giants apart. And the AI loves hunters.
     
  19. DieselBiscuit

    DieselBiscuit Shoggoth tickler

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    Why excuse adding an imbalance by pointing out that another already exists?

    Well, since it will effectively doubles the bonus from an existing blandness (to the temples, not the religions themselves), maybe the results will be favorable.

    The point is fair but I don't know if beelining for those techs are preferable at higher difficulties. I'd wager you'd have a bit of a problem getting Sanitation, Priesthood and a chosen religion without hitting a couple of military techs in between. In general though, we are in agreement.

    I don't know your playing style, but if you get either of the trios you mention here out before Orthus strikes, I really should upgrade my strategy ;)

    I am, by the way, learning to insert smileys to make my post appear less sarcastic. Please bear with me :rolleyes:
     
  20. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    I suppose my point was that there's no imbalance if all the imbalances are in balance. Basically, bringing a gun to a swordfight gives you no advantage if the opponent has a gun, too (even if they're different guns).

    Maybe.

    They might try a hunter rush. Other than that, warriors and archers until they run out of economic techs. In any case, priesthood gives you (surprise!) priests, which come rather early for a tier-3 unit and can be pretty devastating.

    Well, I've popped Valin before Orthus struck once... still, I see your point.

    Ah, that would explain it. :yup:
     

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