FFH2 Challenge V - Capria of Bannor

Ororo

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Greetings heroes and heroines and welcome to the fifth issue of the FFH2 Challenge!

The purpose of this series will be to provide a platform, at which any FFH player can improve their gameplay and strategic knowledge of the FFH mechanics.
Those who are still aspiring to beat the higher difficulties can use this place to learn. On the other hand, those who eat Deity AI for breakfast can teach others how to achieve such results.


This time we will be playing as Capria of Bannor.



Capria’s traits are Spiritual and Industrious. The Bannor civilization also benefits from the Guardsman trait.
Spiritual means no anarchy, double production of Temples and Disciple units start with Mobility I and Potency promotions.
Industrious adds +50% :hammers: when building World- and National wonders and doubles the speed at which we build our Forges.
Guardsman grants free “Guardsman” promotion to all Melee and Archery units.

Bannor starting Technology is Exploration and their civ-specific advantage is that they have an access to a powerful late game civic called “Crusade”. Crusade belongs to the Cultural Values branch and it requires Fanaticism technology. It drastically lowers the unit support costs, war weariness, provides +2 :happy: in cities with state religion and lets you build units +25% faster. Crusade also lets the Bannor use their world spell. To balance it out, it prevents you from building non-military units and buildings and also blocks any diplomacy with civilization that you are in war with. Since we are playing as Capria, this is hardly a disadvantage because we can switch in and out of Crusade at our will thanks to the Spiritual trait.
The world spell is called Rally. Unlike other world spells, this does not require any specific technology, instead it requires you to have adopted the Crusade civic. It creates a Demagog in each of your cities and town improvements. This makes cottage economy a bit more tempting.


The civilization hero is Donal Lugh. He requires the Fanaticism technology. He has a powerful promotion called “Recruiter”, which lets him recruit units each time he kills a demon or undead. Other than that, he starts with a piece of equipment called “Empty Bier” and “Spirit II” promotion.



Bannor have access to 2 unique units, one of which we have already mentioned – Demagog, and the other being Flagbearer.
Demagog is a slightly weaker version of a Champion that requires the Crusade civic but only costs 60 :hammers: compared to Champion’s 120 :hammers:. The main disadvantage is that all your Demagogs will abandon you if you switch out of Crusade.
Flagbearer is unlocked at Fanaticism and can be build only if you are running Crusade civic. It can grant a very useful Morale promotion to all units in range 1.



The Palace provides Law, Spirit and Earth mana.

Fortunately Bannor have no blocked units or buildings.

Starting Location:

Spoiler :


Settings:
Spoiler :


(in the end I did leave the Events on, because turning them off could break some of the game’s functions - at least that's what the game says)
The Islands mapscript provides 1 continent for each civ. It also creates a ton of small islands all around. I made sure our continent is a decent one and not a tundra/jungle hell hole that the game so often creates.

You will need Tholal’s More Naval AI modmod version 2.5 (Download here) to access the save.

The players are encouraged not to take control of Mercurians/Infernals – after all this challenge is supposed to be a Bannor playthrough. Summoning either of them is fine. Basium might be a useful asset to have considering you are likely going to tech Fanaticism anyway and the Mercurian gate costs less thanks to the Industrious trait.
The preferred victory condition for this one is Conquest. However, feel free to ignore this and win whatever victory condition you desire.

If it's possible, please provide a short report of your game, where you will list the major events, tech path and the grand strategy used.
You can also divide your playthrough into segments and provide quick report for each segment.
T100, rushing your neigbour, using your worldspell, summoning Mercurians/Infernals are good examples of "checkpoints".
If you indeed provide a report, please use spoiler tags to keep the game unspoiled for others.

The save is attached below.
Worbuilder save is attached as well. If you decide to use it, make sure you load the mod (ffh2) first!

Good luck and have fun!
 

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Holy starting position, Batman! Freshwater hill with access to three luxury resources including Dragon Bones, plus three more health resources!

An islands start is a major curve ball. Depending on the size of the island and what sort of company you've got, this could be a much, much easier or more difficult game.

I've come to realize how much the mapscript you choose influences your playstyle. My latest thing is to use an extra-huge (because I play with all 19 civs) snaky continent "big and small" map, with islands mixed in, and then immediately open WB and ensure that every civ is land-connected to every other civ. It usually doesn't take more than 2 or 3 rolls before I get a map where it only requires adding 2 or 3 very small isthmuses to get full connectivity. This map design still puts a premium on navies (since most of the cities are near the coast and you can sail around the world) but you can still end up marching across the continent, so the AI doesn't need to decode mass naval invasions in order to march to your doorstep.

If you want, I can set one up for challenge #6 ;)
 
If you want, I can set one up for challenge #6 ;)

Yeah, that would be great! I am a bit spoiled as far as this map goes - as I've mentioned I checked our continent in WB to ensure it's decent quality plus I know who the opponents are because I had remove the "playableciv=1" in the worldbuilder file. Therefore, the Let'sPlay I'm going to make won't be a totally blind walktrough. However I can do a blind one for #6 ;)

As for map size, Huge seems like a bit too much pain in the butt :D. And the 1-movers will be even weaker than they are on standard-sized maps. But we can try Large for a change.
 
As for map size, Huge seems like a bit too much pain in the butt :D. And the 1-movers will be even weaker than they are on standard-sized maps. But we can try Large for a change.
1-movers suck pretty comparably on all maps. :D

I use huge mainly because I also play with all 19 starting civs on every map. You need a really big map with 19 civs or else you're up against other civ borders almost immediately. (Particularly given that the snaky continent script has a lot of ocean.) Even with the extra-huge size I have coded up, it's rare that you can put down more than 3 or 4 cities before you are up against cultural borders or picking sub-optimal spots to settle on. So, if we reduced the size, we'd have to run fewer civs as well.

I guess my angle, aside from it just seeming cool to have all the civs on a map, is that the various victory options seem more wide-open in a huge map game. On a standard size map, conquest and domination are pretty much the way to win unless you're messing around. With a huge map, conquering your way across can start to seem harder than building the tower. I also double the Armageddon counter, because then it can actually come into play even if you're not the one driving it. I had a game where the Sheaim got it to 100 all by themselves.
 
Well we can use something like Large and ~12 civs? What do you think? That should provide a bit more mana and a few more civs to make Tower of Mastery victory a bit more interesting.
 
Why did you choose an Islands map for a Bannor game? Bannor kind of sucks without EitB's new Republic civic and the ability to run Crusade in the membership category.

If anything, I'd pick a limited freshwater or plains-heavy map for Bannor so cottages are actually useful.
 
edit--is it so you can run city-states, foreign trade and cottages instead of aristofarms?
 
Well I think cottages are overrated for Bannor. You still need Towns, not villages, hamlets or cottages and the return you get (=1 demagog?) is abysmal.

I still think that Bannor are going to be a pretty strong civ here anyway thanks to Crusade and Capria's Spiritual trait will definitely shine. OO will help us immensely.

Plus we had a land-heavy map previously so it was a time for a change ;)
 
Well we can use something like Large and ~12 civs? What do you think? That should provide a bit more mana and a few more civs to make Tower of Mastery victory a bit more interesting.
I can set up whatever folks would like. I haven't been doing these challenges so I don't think my voice should carry too much weight.

[to_xp]Gekko;12636775 said:
doktarr, did you try Nikis-Knight huge map? it's got all 19 civs and is all around awesome ;)
I'll take a look; that said, I like playing on a different map every game.

Well I think cottages are overrated for Bannor. You still need Towns, not villages, hamlets or cottages and the return you get (=1 demagog?) is abysmal.

I'll just quote akatosh's old math on this; it doesn't seem that bad.

Bannor are unique in that they effectively generate :hammers: from cottages through Crusade. Assuming a town produces a demagog within 6 turns (not sure on the math), and it takes 40 turns to grown from a village to a town, you are getting a demagog every 46 turns or so at the cost of about 40 :commerce:. A demagog is considered a 60 :hammers: unit, but at 5 strength is better than an axeman--so is probably worth a bit more than 60 :hammers:. Assuming you actually value a demagog at 75 :hammers:, this is a :commerce: to :hammers: conversion of 1 to 1.63. Another way to look at it is to say that a city with 20 grassland cottages is producing a weak champion every 2 turns while sacrificing 20% of its :commerce:, which is pretty good compared to what most civs can achieve.

Yet another way to say the same thing: while running the crusade civic, all your town produce one fewer :commerce: and 1.63 more :hammers:. So the return really is pretty good. The issue, basically, is that you are running a cottage economy all the time (including before you get fanatacism) in order to set up this advantage when you finally enter the crusade civic. There's no short-run benefit to cottages like there is for elves.

Anyway, trying to run Bannor on an island map seems like an interesting challenge. It actually makes things more interesting, in a way, as it makes it more likely that you will spend a bunch of time in crusade. Island maps do tend to draw things out a bit, after all.
 
Well I think cottages are overrated for Bannor. You still need Towns, not villages, hamlets or cottages and the return you get (=1 demagog?) is abysmal.

I still think that Bannor are going to be a pretty strong civ here anyway thanks to Crusade and Capria's Spiritual trait will definitely shine. OO will help us immensely.

Plus we had a land-heavy map previously so it was a time for a change ;)

Without the free Demagogs from towns Crusade actually sucks hardcore compared to what other civs can do. The most direct comparison is Clan of Embers. They get -40% WW straight from the palace and the warrens, available at Masonry, which provide +100% unit production and no restrictions on what you can build vs. Bannor which get +25% unit production and -75% WW at Fanaticism. Moreover Clan doesn't give up a civic in cultural values and can conduct diplomacy freely.

Lore and mechanics-wise Bannor are supposed to be the mirror image of the Clan. They came from the same people and while Clan is the evil zerg civ, Bannor are the good zerg civ. Except cottages are pretty underpowered in base and Bannor aren't helped by any civics. Moreover their thematic religion (Order) is a pretty bad choice for them because Order's unique civic and high priest both give extra happiness, which Bannor don't need because of low-pop cottage cities and the huge WW reduction from Crusade. edit- even their leaders are mirror images of each other. Sabathiel's Org/Cha against Sheelba's Org/Agg, and Capria's Spi/Ind against Jonas' Spi/Exp.

To me, Bannor are not a fully developed civ and need the following:
1) Moving Crusade to Membership so they don't lose cultural values (fixed by EitB)
2) A buff to cottages generally (fixed by EitB's Republic civic, but potentially overpowers elves)
3) A civic that makes cottages grow faster (fixed by EitB's Foreign Trade civic, which doesn't help elves because it conflicts with GoN)
4) Some kind of synergy between Order's mechanics and Bannor's mechanics. Some modmods attempt to fix this by giving Bannor some UUs and UBs available only if they are following Order, but I find this unsatisfying
 
On a side note I noticed one other change I liked in EitB and its variants (Terkhen modmod.) That's the change to Paramanders and Crusaders. In base, these units don't really have a niche other than being anti-demon units that are decent when you lack metals.

EitB changed them to make Paramanders anti-magic units, which are generally useful, and Crusaders become spammable disciple units that can use metals. This means they're an excellent frontline unit for Spiritual leaders and give someone like Capria a great incentive to use Order.
 
Wait... do Demagogs get produced from towns naturally as well? I thought you can only get them this way by using the world spell. That actually changes my opinion on Bannor cottages...
 
Wait... do Demagogs get produced from towns naturally as well? I thought you can only get them this way by using the world spell. That actually changes my opinion on Bannor cottages...
Straight out of the manual...
Crusade Civic said:
20% Chance each Turn for any Town to spawn a Demagog and demote to a Village
The world spell is actually the part that's weak sauce. Your towns are likely to produce the Demagogs soon enough anyway. So really all you're getting is one free Demagog per city, which is not much for a world spell.
 
Nice. Fun to watch FFH videos! Btw, how can you bulb OO when you already have mining as well? Doesn't prophet bulb RoK in that case? Or can you avoid that somehow?

Will try this challenge later this week.
 
Oops... I suck. You're right. I thought Message from the Deep was above Way of the Earthmother in the great prophet bulb preference list... but it's not. Nevermind, I'll just research OO manually.
 
Part 2 of the LP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_MlNadUp-U

Unfortunately, it was recorded couple of hours ago so I'm still hoping to bulb OO :D

EDIT: Lol, I swear to god I set it to "public", but it somehow switched back to "Private". Nvm, you should be able to watch it now.
 
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